Beware: Jirashi

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

 On Nov. 30th, I contacted Jirashi (furaffinity.net/user/jirashi) about a potential commission and asking if he was open.  He said he was, and asked about details.  After giving him the details, he told me that he'd work on a rough sketch of the whole thing for our approval (the commission was actually a buddy's for the two of us) when he got the chance, and would continue pending approval.  I agreed.  About four or five days later, he told me that his school's exams were consuming all of his time and that he wouldn't be able to work on anything after Dec. 15th.  After checking with my buddy, we decided we were okay with waiting.  The 15th passed, and a few days after it I asked about progress.  He told me he'd managed to start something, but nothing near worth showing yet.  The next few weeks after that it was the same deal every time I asked, absolutely 0 progress.  After about the first week in January, he started avoiding me altogether.  I contacted him on AIM, Skype, Steam, he has not said a single word in response since the 14th of January (and the week previous, he had only said one or two things to me at all).  I sent him a note on FA, but he didn't even bother to read it.  A little over a week ago, I was fed up with him avoiding me.  I sent him an IM/message on every means of contact I had with him telling him that he had one week to just contact me, not even show any progress on the image, but just discuss it with me and stop avoiding me, or I would post my story here and to my FA journal, as well as spread the word to those I know not to do business with him.  I frequently reminded him through the week, but no dice.  Sometime in the last week, he finally got around to reading that note on FA, but he had not when I delivered the Ultimatum a week ago.
There's a couple things I would like to note here.  The first is that, previous to my ultimatum, I have been very patient with the guy.  I didn't constantly nag him about progress, I didn't harass him on his FA profile (I posted one comment referencing the image, but it was in jest), and I wasn't even asking that much.  In my ultimatum, I didn't even ask to see progress on the picture, I just wanted him to stop avoiding me and actually talk to me about the image.  The second thing I'd like to note is that I know for a fact that the guy had plenty of opportunities to make progress on the image.  He wasted away his entire break following his exams playing WoW (of which he admitted to), and since the 15th of December, he's taken and completed several badge commissions and streamed himself starting and completing another piece of art on WatchTail.

I would avoid Jirashi unless you like having the artist you're commissioning showing you absolutely no respect and pulling stunts like this.  This is no way to treat anyone, let alone a customer.

EDIT: Guys, you misunderstand me.  I'm not trying to make a case against Jirashi, I'm trying to warn others against doing business with him.  Did he get money from me?  No.  The agreement was that he would get payment following the approval of the sketch.  It may seem silly to you, but the fact of the matter is, he agreed to do something.  Conversations over IM constitute as much an obligation as a conversation via email or notes on FA.  I just happened to chose IMs as a means of contact because I had known the guy prior to this ordeal and (usually), Instant Messaging is a faster way of getting in contact with someone and having an open discussion.  Not only did he continually not deliver, he never bothered to just come out and tell me he wasn't going to do it, he just made me keep on waiting.  I don't mind waiting if I'm going to see something out of it, but making me wait around and jump through hoops to try and get in contact with the guy, only for him to just avoid me is a really cruddy way to treat someone you're doing business with.  All he had to do was assure me that I'd eventually get my art or tell me he wasn't going to do it, but he couldn't even offer me that much.  I don't think saying "Hey, not gonna do it kthxbai" is all that hard.

I very much think this belongs here.  While the issue may not be as pressing as some of the other entries, the bottom line is, an artist I tried to do business with mistreated me.  I'm not out any money, but I am out over two months of time waiting around for someone who not only backed out of something they agreed to do, but couldn't even offer me the courtesy of telling me he was going to back out, and keeping me waiting longer.  I'm not trying to get anything out of the guy, I'm just sharing a very frustrating experience with an artist and trying to warn others away before they receive similar treatment, which is really the whole purpose of putting a "Beware" entry up, is it not?  I've seen several entries up here (several ones about paid transactions, mind you) that mention after a while, it's not about the money, it's about the principal of the thing.  Well, that pretty much fits how I feel about the whole situation, and why I decided to post it up here.  Take from it what you will.

2ND EDIT: Someone requested screencaps of the discussion in question.  I replied in a comment, but someone suggest I post them to the entry itself, so here you are:

Unfortunately, some of the discussions (including the initial agreement) were done over steam IM, which doesn't log chats. I know that doesn't do much for my credibility, but here are snipits from the logs I do have:

This is from the 5th of December, which would be five days following the agreement. This is when he informed me that he wouldn't be able to work until after the 15th:
http://tinypic.com/r/2qx0ug9/7

This is from the 20th of December, the only time he ever claimed any progress on a the pre-approval sketch:
http://tinypic.com/r/2hyukcp/7

This is from the 30th of December, admitting to 0 progress and being absorbed in WoW:
http://tinypic.com/r/1zohml1/7

This last one is from the 6th of January, again further admitting to no progress whatsoever:
http://tinypic.com/r/65ww1d/7

Following that, he said very little to me and would always either change the subject or flat-out ignore me any time I brought up the picture. After the 14th, he has not said a single thing back to me.

I'm sorry I cut the snipits so short, but Jirashi and I used to be friends, so the conversations tend to veer a little on the personal side. Nothing that couldn't be discussed in polite conversation, I just don't like to post my conversations with my friends to the public.

Comments

[allykat.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming you did, but I have to ask because it wasn't explicitly stated, did you pay the artist in question on or around Nov. 30th?

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Did you pay the artist yet?

[snobahr.livejournal.com]

And here is the inevitable request for screencaps of the discussion.

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, some of the discussions (including the initial agreement) were done over steam IM, which doesn't log chats. I know that doesn't do much for my credibility, but here are snipits from the logs I do have:

This is from the 5th of December, which would be five days following the agreement. This is when he informed me that he wouldn't be able to work until after the 15th:
http://tinypic.com/r/2qx0ug9/7

This is from the 20th of December, the only time he ever claimed any progress on a the pre-approval sketch:
http://tinypic.com/r/2hyukcp/7

This is from the 30th of December, admitting to 0 progress and being absorbed in WoW:
http://tinypic.com/r/1zohml1/7

This last one is from the 6th of January, again further admitting to no progress whatsoever:
http://tinypic.com/r/65ww1d/7

Following that, he said very little to me and would always either change the subject or flat-out ignore me any time I brought up the picture. After the 14th, he has not said a single thing back to me.

I'm sorry I cut the snipits so short, but Jirashi and I used to be friends, so the conversations tend to veer a little on the personal side. Nothing that couldn't be discussed in polite conversation, I just don't like to post my conversations with my friends to the public.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

3rding request for specifics on if/when payment was made.

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

If no money changes hands, they don't have to commit no matter how hard you push it. Unless you show us you've paid, your kinda have no credibility here..

^This^

[vindonnus.livejournal.com]

It seems clear to me that he's simply not that "into" your request, and while, yes, I do feel it is rude to blow off a requestor without any sort of "hey I'm busy" statement, this community is more about artists who actually fail to fulfill an obligation outlined in some sort of legally binding contract, usually the sort where an agreement has been made AND goods and/or money has been exchanged. Discussions on IM or e-mail (or some other PM system) aren't enough to constitute a substantial obligation. And, even if it was sufficient, you haven't provided evidence of the conversation yet, as already noted below.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

I've just had a customer flake out on me after MONTHS of negotiation, 43 emails, back and forth about design choices, I even stupidly purchased fur before getting the deposit because of a sale and to combine postage. This morning he cancelled. He has and had NO obligation to me because the deposit had not been paid, buying the fur was MY decision, my mistake and my responsibility.

If you paid, then you have a case. If not, sorry, hard luck.

on a completely unrelated matter, does anyone want to by 4 yards of cream fake fur?

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

Please tell me your joking about selling fur here. D:/

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

Ignoring you without even a "no, thanks I don't want the commission" is rude but, given that you haven't paid him yet, you do come off as a bit pushy. It's one of those behaviors you write off as annoying but not something really worth posting here.

[kriscrash.livejournal.com]

I agree. This is probably something I would do myself, until the money was on the table and the deal had started up a bit. Yes it's better to say NO than let it fizzle out ... but it's just a human flaw I suppose.

To Jirashi it's just a small thing he's put off. If Sfaosttrack20 creates journal drama over this it is NOT going to improve the situation.

[midnightfury.livejournal.com]

Agreeing with everybody who mentioned payment. If you didn't pay him, then you're not out anything.

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

If you're making this a beware, you're making a case. Cases and bewares need evidence.

I'm also trying to figure out what you're telling us. Is the ultimatum over the sketch? This is a lot of excitement over something you haven't paid for so I'm trying to understand what he beef is.

(frozen)

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

I'm relatively certain that you won't find "making a case" anywhere in the definition of "beware." The purpose of a beware is to voice a negative experience to warn others against doing business with an artist at the risk of having a similar experience. That's what I did. Take from it what you will.

As far as "what the beef is," the tl;dr is that he agreed to do something, didn't, couldn't even be bothered to tell me he was gonna flake and instead continually avoided me, making me wait around for him and jump through hoops just to try and contact him to see if he was even gonna do it or not. I wasted time waiting for any kind of word from him, when if he had just come out and told me he wasn't gonna do it, I could've forgotten about him ages ago and tried to take my business elsewhere. The "ultimatum" just refers to what I told him a little over a week ago, which was to just contact me regarding it (even if it was just to tell me he wasn't going to do it), or I would post the story here and to my journal.

Baw I didn't get my free art...

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

Honestly if I never received money for something, weather I tell you I'm gonna do it or not, I don't HAVE to give you anything. Most artists WONT. Your making a BIG deal over nothing. It was a request. It's up to the artist in question if they want to do it or not. If they don't your SOL, you didn't pay you don't get anything. This isn't the artists fault, weather they want to tell you they are gonna go through with it or not, and your only making yourself look like a fool for making this such a big deal.

Re: Baw I didn't get my free art...

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

it wasn't a request, actually. Payment was going to be accepted upon sketch approval. Try reading what I wrote next time.

ATTENTION EVERYONE MAKING 'NO PAYMENT-NO COMPLAINT' COMMENTS.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

While this may not seem as extreme as some of our posts, the artist did, indeed, agree to take a commission, then avoid contact with the commissioner. As the commissioner stated, a simple "I'm sorry, I can't do the commission any more" or "I need a bit more time" would have sufficed. Instead, the artist chose to avoid contact.

You can all weigh your judgment of how serious this is as you see fit, but please, no more comments whether they should have posted the beware in the first place.

Re: ATTENTION EVERYONE MAKING 'NO PAYMENT-NO COMPLAINT' COMMENTS.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

THIS

[lashiec.livejournal.com]

Looking past the no payment bits...

Nov 30 - Jan 5th really isn't that long of a wait compared to a lot of entries here. Especially with other commissions being paid for and finished in that time line. I know it's likely been a bit longer due to the current date and all, but eh.

Sadly it may be a case where the artist doesn't dig the concept described for the commission/type of commission and they may be putting it off.

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

Well, being that the day I delivered the ultimatum was the 1st, it was quite a bit longer than that. Almost a month long. And while two months may not be that long of a wait for commission progress, the 14th-the 1st is quite a bit to wait for someone to just talk to you about it. I'd like to note that it wasn't that he was unable to contact me, he was on AIM, Skype, and Steam almost every day between the day he stopped talking to me altogether (Jan 14th) and the day I gave him the ultimatum (Feb. 1st). Not to mention, in between those dates, he was on WatchTail streaming art, and posted a completed badge commission.

Also, I never claimed that my issue was more pressing than the others posted here, I just wanted to post my story and let other's take from it what they will.

Maybe he did just lose interest, but if he did, all he had to do was tell me he wasn't going to do it. He didn't, and instead made me wait around for him and go out of my way to try and get in contact with him regarding it.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, just because you contact an artist? Doesn't mean that arrangements will necessarily go through. There's a reason my new terms of service gives time limits on quotes because a lot of people do contact artists, go "I want to buy blah blah blah from you" and then disappear after getting a quote. They may not come back to an artist for years if at all.

As a general rule, I treat any arrangement in which no firm arrangements (ie exchange of money or a sketch) have taken place as an agreement which may fall through (Hell some still do that even after firm arrangements). Generally if someone disappears on me, I may contact them once or twice, if still nothing happens, I leave the ball in their court and move onto something else.

You chose to waste your time chasing an artist you did not have a firm agreement with, is his inability to give you a straight forward "no, I can't" bad of him? Yes, it is but at the same time nothing concrete existed, so while you can complain of flaky behaviour in terms of confirming an agreement, it's not exactly a major complaint. (Cos if we artist's complained about every commissioner who did this to us, the AB staff would run out of tags). I'd say learn from this event, find someone else to do the work.

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

Again, I'm not really asking for input on my situation, I'm just trying to share a negative experience with an artist and let people take from it what they will.

But while we're on the subject, yes, it /was/ a concrete agreement. We each laid out terms and agreed to meet them. According to US law, that's enough to constitute a binding contract, so I think at the very least it constitutes a concrete agreement.

And once more, my major issue was not that he failed to deliver, my issue was the way he treated me in doing so. I did not choose for him to treat me as such, and it was because of the way he acted that my time and energy was wasted.

[marlinkhylacat]

I don't have advice for this post--I just wanted to congratulate you for staying so calm and rational even when it seemed like people were just responding to this post to attack you. If only all posters (of entries or comments) could be more like this!

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

[maddogairpirate.livejournal.com]

I've had a bunch of artists who offered to do something only to not deliver. But since the agreement didn't involve any money, I shrugged and went on with my life.

If as you described he was to do a sketch before you paid him and that was concretely agreed, it's bad form, yes. Worth a beware? I don't think I'd qualify it as one. At the end of the day you're out the time you took to talk with him. We all have deals that don't go through.

This place is usually more for when an artist does the work and the guy doesn't pay, or the commissioner pays and the artist doesn't do the work. Well, those aren't the only things. Issues of copying, blatant rudeness in negotiating the transaction, stuff like that can make it here.

But in all honesty if we had a post for every fur that flaked or didn't get through the negotiation stages before there was an honest exchange, be it trade or money... well, heck, we'd be flooded every day.

Some definite inconvenience, but you're going to find small violins here at best playing for you.

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

okay...
how many times do I have to tell you people what my intentions are? I'm not trying to rally people to my cause or whatever. As I have said, countless countless times, my intentions were to post a negative experience with said artist and warn them against possible mistreatment. I'm not asking for input, I'm not asking for help, I'm putting the story up so that people can take from it what they will.

Second of all, two moderators have already stated that they don't want people posting comments about whether or not this is worth a Beware. They are here:
http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/427468.html?thread=14692812#t14692812
and here:
http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/427468.html?thread=14696652#t14696652

[suewithers.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what to think of this really. In my opinion it might have been rude to not give a firm answer, but then also just as rude to give an "ultimatum" and then act like someone playing WoW in their free time is horrible in an attempt to make the artist look like a scrub. I can understand being frustrated, but I don't understand the need to resort to personal attacks and offering an ultimatum for work he obviously felt no obligation to complete and was not obligated to complete.

To be honest this post is not exactly making you come off as the bigger person and I think that's why you're getting flack for it instead of sympathy that something didn't work out.

[sfaosttrack20.livejournal.com]

Again, I'm not seeking sympathy, I'm just posting my experience for others to take from it what they will. And he /was/ obligated to do it, two parties naming terms and agreeing to meet those terms constitutes a verbal agreement, which is actually considered a legally binding contract. No, playing WoW in his spare time is not a terrible thing, but I included that in there to show that he had ample time to work on the image he had agreed to, and didn't. Also, at no time did I result to personal attacks. I never said flat-out the guy is a jerk or anything like that, I simply stated that the way he treated me in this whole ordeal is unacceptable. I don't believe the ultimatum was unreasonable. I was tired of him ignoring and avoiding me about something he wasn't delivering on and not just telling me if he was gonna do it or not, and by then it had been the better part of a month with absolutely zero response to anything I had sent him, and I wasn't going to just take being mistreated lying down. I was hoping that it would grab his attention and it wouldn't come to this, but no such luck. All he had to do was say one single sentence to the effect of "I'm not gonna do it," which I pointed out to him, but he couldn't even do that much.

Also, I never claimed to be a "bigger person," and as I've said (countless times, yet no one seems to listen) that the only intention behind posting this entry is to forewarn those thinking of doing business with him that they might be treated similarly.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

My view on this is, the commissioner made arrangements with the artist, and set aside 'x' amount of money for the commission. From the chat logs, at least for a while, the artist kept saying they'd do it/were working on it. So the OP had every reason to expect the money would eventually be needed.

Without a definite response from the artist saying they wouldn't do the pic, the OP couldn't just up and commission someone else. What if the artist suddenly got their stuff together and got the pic sketched/done? Then the OP would owe for two commissions...

Granted, they could say to the first artist "you stopped responding to me so I commissioned someone else." But that may wind up with them getting posted on A_B, themselves...

Again, all hypothetical, but I don't entirely dismiss this post out of hand simply because money hasn't been exchanged.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

But that may wind up with them getting posted on A_B, themselves

And I'd think that "beware" would be just as invalid this one :P

I mean the situation sounds a little frustrating but I dunno if I'd want to work with someone who posted to A_B because an artist didn't accept their commission within a month, whatever might have been promised!
Possible exceptions in the case of some kind of very time-sensitive commission, like a v-day present, but the OP says this wasn't the case here.

[marie-the-otaku.livejournal.com]

This seems like a perfectly valid beware to me- I'd like to know about an artist that lacks communication almost entirely after a bit and then slowly cuts off all communication altogether, as this artist did. It smacks of unprofessionalism to me, even if no money ever actually exchanged hands, and being unprofessional like that is something I would very much like to avoid in an artist that I commission.

All this artist would had to have done was simply say something like 'I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in taking on your commission at this point in time.' As for the people who say the commissionee giving an ultimatum is in bad taste- I actually agree with it in this case, due to the almost total lack of communication from the artist. A deadline for acceptance would let me know to take my money elsewhere after it's passed, since I would assume that no communication after the deadline was issued meant that the artist had either no time for the commission or no interest in it.

Whether or not money actually exchanged hands, it still puts me off of commissioning them, and I'm grateful that this person came forward.

[puritikoneko.livejournal.com]

This. All the way.

[kc-shy.livejournal.com]

Speaking as an artist who is extremely slow with their commissions, and has a lot of real life things that prevent the time and ability to work on things withing a "normal" time frame, I actually can feel for Jirashi.

People that constantly bring up their artwork and constantly want a status update wear on the nerves. Is it right to flat out ignore people? No. Have I done it? Absolutely, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. The more I'm hounded by someone about a piece the less likely it is that I'll feel like even doing the commission because I dread the "Well do you have anymore done yet? Can I see it?"

If money exchanged hands, I can see it being slightly more valid, but honestly, you have a "verbal contract" for work to be done with no collateral on the table. Nothing tying him to doing it. This does, however, show that his word isn't necessarily binding, and that timeliness isn't his forte.

[hunter-san.livejournal.com]

Wow, I really admire your patience! You've got a pretty level head and seem like a good commissioner to me.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

Whether money has exchanged hands or not. If you make an arrangement with an artist and work out details like....

i. payment will be made after the approval of the first sketch

I think this makes things very valid. The artist could have easily just said "no sorry, not interested" instead of leading the OP along making them think they will possibly get their commission.

Sorry you wasted your time on this fella.