Refund Policy Advice?

[jakejynx.livejournal.com]

Question to all: What is your refund policy?

We've always held the policy that the deposit is non-refundable except under extreme circumstances (you know, at our discretion). And while I typically had it in mind that smaller items requiring full payment upfront were also non-refundable, I just noticed that it's not explicitly stated in our TOS. x) When you have someone wanting to cancel a paid commission out of the blue for no real reason (they just "don't want it anymore") what do you do?

Is it a good idea to make payments non-refundable, even if work has not started yet (except, again, in extreme circumstances)?

Comments

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

i think it's unfair to make payments non refundable if no work has begun, but that is just my opinion. i also believe that money received from the transaction should not be spent until the work has been completed.

so, if someone cancelled on me out of the blue and i hadn't touched pencil to paper, i would fully refund them.

ETA: you guys are suit makers (duh melissa....). i'm not so sure if my policy would apply, since you all need to buy specific supplies and whatnot.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I think it would still work with adjusting for fursuit makers.

What I think, but I'm not a suit maker, so maybe it won't be as fair as I think, is that only part of the payment should be non refundable, the part you use for materials. If you haven't yet bought materials, then refund in full. But that way you won't be out of materials.

[kappyjeanne.livejournal.com]

I also second this. Materials can be non refundable! Keeps the buyer dedicated but leaves him the option of backing out without 100% of his original payment. Which is an incentive to stay dedicated, while still offering the ability to void the transaction if something comes up.

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

It's been my understanding that non-refundable deposits are for materials, and double as reserving that spot. If you've already bought the materials for their costume and have turned down other commissions because they have the privilege of being on the queue, then it would still be non-refundable. Probably if you haven't bought materials, or if the queue is not a big issue (for me, somebody taking up a slot that somebody else could have had IS wasting money and time when they cancel), then you could refund them fully.

It depends on what the deposit actually covers and whether you feel you've lost time, materials, or business in reserving their spot.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I've always loved the idea of having a deposit for keeping a slot in queue, it happens so often people just disappear on me, not even letting me know something came up.

But, thinking it from a commissioner point of view, I think most people would be put off by it.

I may be not remembering right, but didn't a fursuit maker do that before and there was drama about it? It's cause the deposit was huge, but even when they lowered it, some people were still annoyed.

[delgrotto.livejournal.com]

A while ago, Beastcub was going to charge people just for a price quote. Was a very bad idea.

Don't know if that was what you're referencing, though.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that's what it was. I knew I wasn't remember right, my bad,

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

I do charge a slot fee, not for artwork, but for fursuits or costuming commissions that a customer is going to be making payments on. But here's how I do it...:

- $50 non-refundable fee is due up-front upon acceptance of the commission. By paying this fee, the customer is proving that they are serious about the commission and are reserving a slot. This $50 is applied to the 30% down payment (materials deposit). It is a small amount, and I consider the $50 to be a fair compensation in the event that a customer decides against the commission later on, since I have to turn away other potential customers, and I spend time doing research on materials, contacting fabric suppliers, and general planning of the costume.
- Within 30 days, an additional amount is due. The amount due + the original $50 comes to 30% of the customer's order, and covers costs of materials. The materials deposit MAY be refundable, generally if materials haven't been purchased yet; if they have been, the customer may opt to receive the materials instead of a monetary refund, especially if they are fabrics/materials I wouldn't otherwise be able to re-sell.
- Payments are accepted on the costume; if the customer ends the commission, the payments after the initial 30% can be refundable depending on stage of completion of the project. (Personally, I do not begin work until the costume has been paid in full, as that determines a customer's place in line so I don't push one person ahead of another in regards to getting stuff out for deadlines and such.)

In regards to my $50 deposit. Think of it this way: our mechanic charges a $100 diagnostic fee just to look at our car and figure out what's wrong. If we have the car repaired there, that $100 goes toward the costs of the repairs (basically making the diagnostic free) but if we opt to go someplace else for the actual repair because they are cheaper, our mechanic hasn't lost the time they put into diagnosing the issue. Planning out a fursuit project and gathering sources for materials can be simple or it can be difficult, it all depends on the individual project, but $50 is not a large amount if someone decides last-minute to cancel a project, and I am still compensated for my time spent on them as an actual customer (not just a potential).

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything against it, I certainly would love to do things like that too (though isn't normal with regular artwork), I just know that a lot of commissioners get put off by it.

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

Honestly? The $50 fee hasn't put anyone off, and I've been implementing that fee since the beginning of this year. Usually, folks just pay the 30% up front (and that includes the $50 fee) since they're already prepared to pay that much to a maker when they're shopping for quotes.

I know that a lot of makers say that their 30% materials deposit is non-refundable, and depending on the maker and the cost, that can be $400 or more! And people still agree to it. Since I am still a relatively new maker with a limited portfolio, the $50 fee I think eases some fears because soooo many people have been burned by "fursuit makers", so to know that only $50 is non-refundable helps them feel better about it. :)

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

That's good and all for you, but I have seen people put off. I'm not telling you not to work that way if it works for you, but someone is asking advice here and you need it from both the artist point of view and the commissioners. They'll decide in the end which they think works best for them after hearing advice and warnings.

To be honest, you kinda sound like I think fees like that are a bad thing, but I honestly love them, it's just a warning. Just like, for example, some people don't let people repost artwork, which is fine for them, but will put people off.

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this sort of thing is exactly what I mean. Keeps people from taking up space if they're going to have issues, legit or imagined, paying later. And it's not a fee FOR the slot as it is an up-front cost of the whole costume.

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I mean, time does go into the beginning stages of a commission. Sure, I can browse around and suggest to someone asking for a quote that "Oh, I could use such and such a fabric," but if I'm actively working on someone's costume I'm ordering swatches, deciding on materials, in some cases scouring sites like eBay and having to sift through listings, or come up with ideas on how to execute someone's costume and what exactly they want. Those hours -should- be paid, even though they are still "research" time, it's time you could be spending on another more serious customer's costume. $50 is not a lot to have 100% non-refundable, and honestly it really hasn't put anyone off of commissioning me. It just lets me know they're serious about the commission, and I can start planning on it. :)

But beyond that? 30% of a fursuit commission can be a big chunk of change, in some cases upwards of $400, depending on the maker. To have that be "absolutely non-refundable" is a bigger hit, and in a way I'm honestly surprised that -that- isn't putting people off. Not saying it's a bad thing (because time and materials -do- cost money) just that it's a bit of a harder hit for the customers.

[fenrirs-child.livejournal.com]

you put this quite well, and i have a similar policy in my TOS in regards to that. though i may have to borrow some of your wording to make it more clear and less abrasive, if you don't mind ^^

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

Go for it ;)

[delgrotto.livejournal.com]

I only work with small items, such as tails, ears, and hats, so this may not apply to big-item makers such as fursuits and the like....

I have a no-questions asked refund policy. If for any reason the customer wants to back out of an order, or if they don't like their item, they can get a full refund.

The only stipulation is that the customer must send the item back if it's in their possession. They are also responsible for the return shipping costs.

Yes, sometimes that can suck on my end, but in my opinion it's just part of running a good business. I want people to feel confident about shopping from me. Customer satisfaction is top priority, and I'll do anything I can within reason to get that positive feedback.

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

This is a good approach to take for smaller items, though I would say there should be a time limit and like-new-quality stipulation in your agreement. (So, a customer can't wear the tail for a con one week, then return it the next all matted and obviously used, because you can't re-sell that.)

Fursuits are a huge investment of time, and are often customized to the individual commissioner's wants; if a costume is too unique, it has almost no re-sale value so it is harder for a fursuit to be re-sold or returned. In this case, I've seen makers offering refunds based on what they can get for the costume at auction, minus the cost of materials, or some such.

[delgrotto.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I forgot to mention there is a 7-day limit on my return policy. The item has to be returned within seven days, and be in reasonably good shape in order for a refund to be given. Like you said, there are people out there who would wear an item for an event, and try to get their money back. That of course wouldn't fly with me, heh.

I agree on the fursuits. Highly customized items have a low resale value. So in those cases refund policies would be different. I think refunds based on the auction-value/materials is a good idea.

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

I'm agreeing with Likeshine that it's unfair not to refund people if you haven't started on their commission. I've seen several artists stating in their commission policy that if they can't start/finish the commission, they can refund their customers

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

I agree with mialattia. If something's non refundable it should be based on the time or funds spent on the creation of the piece (i.e. the materials).

Of course, I also don't think that the fursuit creator should be entitled to free materials at the client's expense either so I also feel that if the client is willing to pay for shipping they should be able to request the materials ~they paid for~ be sent to them.

IMO if no work has been done or material bought, the customer should be entitled to a full refund. In fact, (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think that it is even legal to keep someone's money that way when they have nothing to show for it. I remember this being brought up in my own AB post when the artist didn't want to refund me despite not having started work on my piece, but that was a drawing. I'm only assuming that the same goes for tangible goods.

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

I wonder if this would apply if something is considered to be a "fee" though? Like I mentioned above, I have a non-refundable $50 fee to reserve a slot, because at that point I'm actively doing work for the customer. I might not have anything material to show for it (except perhaps a list of supplies compiled, and a pile of swatches received, and a ref-sheet printed out, maybe even drafting a pattern if it's, say, a specially shaped tail or some such) but work has been done at that point. It does take time to gather resources and plan out how you're going to actually do the work, even if work on the item itself has not yet been started.

Artwork is a little different. You have something tangible to show for early planning stages, like thumbnails and sketches, that can be used to justify a partial refund instead of a full refund. But in costuming, you're still doing work even though there's nothing really physical to show.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the same can be said for artwork sometimes, definably not all the time though.

But, it happens often enough, where you send tons of emails back and forth, trying to figure out what the person wants, putting you're time in to help think up ideas with them, sometimes even doing quick concept sketches. Yet it's not considered right to take money for that time.

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

Granted, it's still time out of an artist's schedule and technically could be considered a loss for them. 99% of artists (particularly of our levels) do not charge for it even if we probably could because it's not good business.

I'm a digital artist so my issue is different, but my refund policy for the OP:

"The Artist reserves the right to cancel a project if the Artist feels the Commissioner is being unreasonable. The Artist will refund the money in full UNLESS work has been done on the commission. A percentage will be withheld from the refund price depending on the status of the work (i.e. whether it has been sketched, inked, flat colored, etc)."

[ocelotish]

If I were you, I'd write in something to protect the commissioner in that case. It's certainly possible a commission could want a character sheet from you, but if you have to cancel (for any reason/no reason at all) they might be stuck with sketches they consider useless.

I do agree that artists deserve to get paid for their work, but I also don't want commissioners to get baited and switched. I'd be miffed if I commissioned a painting, then the artist got busy and only refunded part of my money because they had a sketch done when they needed to cancel.

That's my 2¢ at least.

[skyote.livejournal.com]

I think this is a perfectly fair policy.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Well see, that is different to what I was getting at because not everyone starts work IMMEDIATELY as soon as they have the money. If the piece isn't even in the planning or research stages (and really, artwork can require a lot of planning too depending on the customer and the amount of back-and-forth with them) then I see nothing wrong with the customer getting a full refund if their money was taken and the maker hasn't gotten around to doing anything with it yet.

As for how that stands legally though I really have no idea. It would be difficult to prove non-tangible work being done on tangible goods.

[ocelotish]

Alternatively the partial refund could be justified if sketches, notes, fabric, and patterns are sent after the partial refund. Whether the customer can do anything or not is another question, but it would be something physical they could get.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Oh yes absolutely, I completely agree that artists or fursuit makers should be 'compensated' (i.e. allowed to keep an amount equal to the work done) if work has been started before the transaction is called off.

[ocelotish]

Oh, I was responding to not really having anything to show for work being done. In that case, they can return supplies and the notes, patterns, and research they've done as the 'partial product'. Whether or not the commissioner can use some of it or not, they're still getting something for what they paid.

[rhianna-muir.livejournal.com]

My refund terms are: "Refunds: Full refunds are only possible before work has been started. Where a sketch is provided, if at that stage you are not happy with the work, you will only be charged for the sketch and the remainder will be refunded."

[mekania.livejournal.com]

This is a commissioner's take, I guess. I only commission artwork but I think it works for general business practices.

If you (the artist/maker) are the one cancelling a commission then I think it's your responsibility to refund in full but if the commissioner is the one cancelling than they should be the ones to take a loss if work has been done (and proof of work can be provided. I think that's an important aspect). If no work/materials have been purchased and you don't have a non-refundable booking deposit like the commenter up thread than you should refund in whole.

This isn't exactly comparable but I'm a makeup artist and for weddings typically you have a non-refundable deposit just for booking the date so if the wedding falls through you get something for keeping that date open. That's been an industry standard thing forever, so I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. $50 is a good price that I don't think would scare people off when they're ordering expensive items. And again if the artist cancels or break contract by missing deadlines, etc, I don't believe the artist has the rights to that money either.

[razzek.livejournal.com]

Here's the refunds policy that's in my TOS. I've only had to use it two or three times, all incidents having occurred before I started any work.

Refunds Policy
If for any reason you are dissatisfied with your art I will issue a refund. If I have not started work on your commission, you will get a full refund minus PayPal fees. If I have started work but not completed it, you will be refunded all but the cost of the work that has already been done. Should the work be finished and you are not satisfied, you will only be issued a refund of half of the total commission cost and you will not be able to commission me again.

[ocelotish]

Why is it that you bar the re-commissioning?

I mean it's entirely possible for you to do your best and the customer wants to like it, but for whatever reason it just doesn't appeal to them. I mean it happens, no matter how careful you are in the step-by-step, and sometimes the artist just loses the life as the piece gets reworked.

I'm just interested in your thought process.

[razzek.livejournal.com]

It's more to do with me than with the commissioner, that particular policy. :) If I associate a negative experience with a specific person I can still be cordial and friendly but I am not going to expend a lot of energy trying to please them later and I know it. It's a bit of security and prevention of stress for both sides. Fortunately, I have yet to use this clause and I hope I never will.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I want to treat my customers the way I'd want to be treated as a customer.
I'd like to be able to receive a full refund if no work has been done or a partial if some work has been done. So that's what I offer. Seems fair to me.

[ocelotish]

For the sake of this post, I'm assuming it's the commissioner that's canceling for everything I'm saying.

I'd generally say that anything should be refunded except for what it's cost the artist. This means that supplies, if bought for that project, would be deducted (however, if it's something generic you go through all the time, e.g. the stuffing you use to make all stuffed animals, then it's not really an expense they put on you). To some degree, that is turning away potential customers, but that's more on the large commissions than the small ones. (Let's be honest, you didn't turn away much for the sake of a $5 sketch, but you might have for a $100 painting.) In addition, with the small stuff, I imagine it's kind of you've done it or you haven't. You should only charge for the work you've done.

To put it another way, for small stuff people generally pay all at once, yes? Why should it be non-refundable? Once they've paid for the smaller item, there's no advantage to canceling it if it'll just result in you keeping the money and them getting nothing in return. On that note, it's pretty designed to leave unhappy customers and I don't know why you'd really want to operate that way. I'd much rather spend the time making something for someone who wanted it.

[borderdog.livejournal.com]

For me, purchasing materials = starting work.
Some of my materials are not easy for me to get and it requires time and effort. For instance a few stores I get stuff from are at least a 2 hour round trip. That is potentially 2 hours I could have spent working on someone else's commission.

If I haven't done anything at all regarding their commission, I think a refund is more than reasonable.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

My refund policy is (paraphrased from my ToS page):

* If I haven't begun work yet, I refund the full cost over a period of three to six months.

* If I have begun work already, I refund the full cost minus work already rendered (which is usually just a matter of subtracting the price of a sketch, inks, or flats from the original price and refunding that result), over a period of three to six months.

* If someone commissions a picture of themselves and another person and they break up or have some kind of falling out, well, that's not my fault. BUT, I will offer to alter the image to include a different person if it's still early enough. Otherwise, the cancellation policy as stated above applies. On my ToS page I actually mention this scenario and try to encourage my readers NOT to pay for commissions that involve people they don't know really well or don't trust, but -- furries! :D

* I originally considered having a policy that prevents someone from cancelling until a month or two has passed, but the reality is a) that can actually prevent them from being able to dispute the exchange, which would make me look sneaky and b) when I thought about it more, it doesn't really matter whether I've just been paid or was paid two months ago. I'd still have to refund the same amount. So I decided I didn't need to implement a policy like that.

[pac.livejournal.com]

the long and short of any work i do is "i am paid for the work i do".

obviously, if no work is done, than a full refund is in order (if it is not a deposit and doesn't fall within an exceptional circumstance.)

commissions that have been completed and for whatever reason want a refund, partial is issued. this is usually for larger pieces, when ample time and correspondence has transpired. it may be different for a fursuiter as you have a physical item when can help recoup the loss (reselling it).

i would agree with borderdog though: if items are special ordered for a project, it counts towards the the cost of the commission. if that's the case, it should be itemized to the commissioner's invoice. i probably wouldn't count that portion of the cost as refundable.