Slow Communication: Pikminlink

[clevercdn.livejournal.com]

WHO: pikminlink

WHERE: http://pikminlink.deviantart.com/

WHAT: Request for digital art. Bust of character.

WHEN:
Commissioned Dec 27, 2010.
Update request: Feb 8, 2011
2nd Update request: May 10, 2011
3rd Update request: June 1, 2011
Art Received: June 7, 2011
Request for modification: June 8, 2011

PROOF:
Complete Conversation:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/1screenshot.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/2screenshot.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/3screenshot.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/4screenshot.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/5screenshot.png

Images that were linked/referenced in the original request:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/sisippurdy.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/sisglamour.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/sispertty.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/sisbeach.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/sisip/necklacefromkev2.jpg

Delivered Piece:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2651600/skiestuff/hmm/sisip_pikminlink.jpg

EXPLAIN:
I was referred to this artist by a friend and was quite excited to see that her commissions were open. I submitted my request for commission and was given a slot and told it would be a 'couple of weeks'. Unfortunately after that the communication only happened when I started it. I do understand she has a very hectic schedule but it felt as if I was being pushed to the wayside. When I did finally receive my piece it looked a bit rushed and not quite as I had hoped. I do understand artistic licensing but there was a significant difference between my reference photographs and the final product. I did tell her, once I received it, that I loved it.. because the relief at getting the final project made me jump at giving her some feedback, however after I had time to look at the finer details I realized that it wasn't quite as I'd wanted (as example the necklace looking like it was copied from the reference photo, pasted on and then given a filter to give it a similar appearance). A message explaining this was sent to her and I'm now waiting for acknowledgment that it was even received.

Will update when further communication is received and/or issue resolved. :)


Edit: Artist has made contact and explained details satisfactorily. I consider this event closed/handled. :)

Comments

[holydust.livejournal.com]

Her communication is a little slow, yes, though I really don't think I would have posted a warning here when you've only just asked her to make an adjustment, unless you really want to be sure that she is wary about working with you in the future.

I can't help but feel your expectations are a little unreasonable. I love the way this piece looks. I can see some pixelation around the necklace which is a little strange, but that can be blended out. The eyes look suited to the artist's style. In fact, they are WAY smaller than she normally draws eyes, and she is NOT a realistic-style artist.

If you hire someone who paints in a manga-esque way to look exactly like an actress you have to be prepared for an interpretation of the actor's look into the artist's actual style.

As well, resizing the eyes will require her to completely re-paint them. And making it "not so sketchy" will require an entirely full repaint.

Just my $.02.

[mandyseley.livejournal.com]

Seconding this.

The necklace is also a little pixelated, but clearly not a copy/paste job as you suggested.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

IA this image is well within the artist's style, and you have to bear in mind that her style wasn't realism so I think this is mostly a case of unrealistic expectations.

[clevercdn.livejournal.com]

Just to explain a bit more, :)

When I first comissioned her the example given (She has since updated her examples on her DA page) did not list this current, more painting-like style. One of the examples of her bust images was of her TMNT image. ( http://pikminlink.deviantart.com/gallery/214561#/dw39h8 )

Perhaps that's why I was a bit surprised by the newer style. It's not a bad style, in the least, just not what I was expecting to receive. Compared to the example given, an outlined almost comic-book fashion, the painting type style (to me, at least) does have a feeling of being hastily done.

Is my post a bit rushed? Perhaps, yes, though I think that even a "yes, I've read your message, I hear your issues, lets discuss this further when I have a moment." would have made me feel not quite as brushed off.

Are my requests unrealistic? I don't know, considering what I was shown as an example was not the style received, I'm not sure. I do admit, my original entry was lacking in the detail, unfortunately (or fortunately?) I've not had an encounter like this before so I wasn't quite sure how to handle it.

She is a good artist I just don't believe I would have commissioned her had I known I'd get a 'painting' like final product rather than the outlined cartoonish style originally exampled.

Again, I do understand artistic licensing, and I understand that an artist is constantly evolving their style but this one, to me, was quite a difference.

I'm hoping that at least I get some sort of message from her so that we can work on getting this resolved.

:)

Hope this explains just a bit more.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

Hm. I have to say I don't see what you're seeing. The necklace in the drawn picture has the star in a different formation (in the ref the bottom...thingies are curving inwards, for example) and is at a completely different angle so I don't think the artist did a c&p job there.

The sketchy feel is also consistent with the other portrait commission in her gallery and the example she has in her commission journal.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

AH, I see the pixelation on the star, that is pretty weird

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

All three non-fleshy things (the piercings, earrings and necklace) have that 'pixelation' going on. It seems to me that it's a technique she's using to give it some hardness to the image rather than the softness of her hair and flesh. I'm not commenting on the rest of the issues but that at least, I can see what she was probably doing there.

[imlikat.livejournal.com]

While the wait was definitely longer than you'd expected, as for the rest of it, it seems to me you had unrealistic expectations. You say you understand artistic license, but it sounds like you do not.. I honestly don't see anything *wrong* with the final product, compared to the rest of her art, and the examples in her commission journal.

Agreeing with others, the necklace doesn't look copy/pasted at all. And to make the eyes smaller and make it look less "sketchy" she would have to repaint a significant portion of the picture, maybe the whole thing. I wouldn't be surprised if she's trying to figure out how to politely tell you no, or venting offline before she can come back and tell you yes.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

^

[ladysnakebite.livejournal.com]

The necklace is most definitely not a copy/paste job. She used some hard-edge brushes to give it a shiny feel, that's it.

Otherwise, agreeing with everything everyone has said so far.

Actually, no. I just realized.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

Now, the earrings -- I'm sorry, but I just realized those are directly copied and pasted in. That's kind of a no-no in my book. But the OP didn't even reference that. Look -- one of them is just flipped to make the other one. She didn't bother to do a paintover.

I'm calling her out on the necklace. She knew if she pasted in the necklace the OP gave her she'd get caught, so she copy/pasted a seashell and a starfish, separately, then painted over them.

So yes, THAT is bad.

So, my final word: as regards the character's face, eyes, hair, and the "sketchiness" -- you're being unreasonable.

The jewelry, though -- at least the earrings -- is a copy/paste paintover.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I agree with what others said, but I must say that it's really rude of you to say you loved it, not pointing out anything and only doing so after. I understand you were relieved after a long wait, but it's a bad thing you did and next time, you should really look things over right away or not bring it up again. If I were her, I would probably take some time to reply as well as I'd be pretty peeved.

I have had it before where someone would say they love the picture, then talk bad about it with others, with ought even giving me a chance to fix anything.

BUT, to clarify what I meant above, if a marking is off and you only notice later and ask for a fix, that's fine of course, we do miss things. But you seem to dislike almost the full picture, something most people would notice as soon as they look at it.

[clevercdn.livejournal.com]

I do understand that, which was why I apologized when I sent her the secondary message. The thing is, if I had seen some progress reports, even just a basic concept sketch then none of this would have been brought up here because I would have been able to work with her before being given a completed commission.

[kairi-koitra.livejournal.com]

kinda bad juju to say you like something then post someone here... with complaints.

Complaints should be brought up as soon as you see the orignal image.. usually in the sketch stage unless the artist has it in their commission TOS that no previews or changes will be premitted then if you still take the commission with those type of rules To bad so sad.

But honestly i'm shocked you found an artist willing to work with photos to begin with. Many artists what an actual charater referance sheet to work with before even attempting art. This is more to save themselves work and things of that nature so I think your lucky there.

I can see what people are saying about the earrings and the necklace but even then.. it still doesn't look horribly done. I really kind of enjoy it personally but that is just me. The fact is that you to enjoyed it, you told the artist you loved it and now are changing your song and dance just seems kind of rude to me. Don't say you love something that you don't. Be honest with the artist you commission. If your not sure you like a piece don't comment right away take a day or to, to really look over your piece of art you paid for. Think of it like a car you don't just point to one on a lot and say hey I like the way this looks I'll take it without taking it out for a test drive and taking the time to really look it over.

All in all its a lesson learned. Maybe you'll be lucky enough that she takes the time out to fix the small issues you brought up but I kind of look at it as you said you loved the piece the artist finished their part of the contract the moment you said that you loved the piece and accepted it from them as is.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

Personally, my thing about the jewelry being nabbed from Google images isn't like a OH DEAR GOD PUT HER ON THE STAKE AND BURN HER thing, not at all. I think it's a little sloppy/lazy and technically it's illegal, but that's something I would have just addressed with her personally. I can't say I HATE it because it doesn't stand out that much. It's more an issue of "why didn't you take the time to paint it yourself, or if you couldn't, why weren't you honest about it?"

I still think the OP had unrealistic expectations about the outcome of the character's face and overall look.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

I actually really disagree with you. Regardless of wether I like the way something looks if I found out later it was traced/c&p I would be really mad. While I disagree with a lot of the ops complaints the jewelry shenanigans make it a very valid beware.

Also I don't know how rare it is that an artist would go off a picture reference. I've commissioned some 300+ artist and have never had a problem with any kind of visual reference. Written descriptions are another story entirely!

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

All the jewelry looks like it was copied and pasted out of pictures, honestly. The nose stud is especially obvious.

I'm not sure if the actual slowness is the problem, or the fact that the artist is perhaps following references a little too... literally. Then again, being that this community seems to be largely furries, ~6 months is like a day to people here.

If the OP was quoted a "couple weeks" and that turned into months and months, she has the right to complain, and unless the artist is open about doing the copy/paste thing she shouldn't do it in commissions.

[pikminlink.livejournal.com]

Hello, I am the artist in question here.

A lot of people are talking about the jewelry, I want to say while yes, I did use references, I DID paint them myself. They were NOT copied and pasted straight into the image! I had painted over the reference in a completely different layer, added in additional filters and finished it up with sharpening to give it a metallic look. The sharpening would explain the pixelization. You can tell that the jewelry is at different angles as well. I did take one side of the painted earrings and duplicated it to the other for ease and time. The jewelry is the only things on their own separate layer while everything else is painted on one layer. This was done because I am not familiar with jewelry and didn't want to mess up the original piece.

I have to say I was rather put off with the fact I was told it was great, only to then be told it wasn't good enough. I have been working on fixing the piece up for the past few weeks off and on. I had to completely re-paint her face to adjust the eyes, and then make the eyes smaller. All the extra work has been too excessive and many other artist friends have told me not to even bother with the extra work I'm putting into this.

I understand being upset over the timing, though the commission was taken just before a new semester where I was unexpectedly flooded with difficult classes and excessive homework. I do admit I have a backlog, and it has been difficult to get through them all since I have also been a Guest at conventions, dealt with University, and other "Life" issues (my car was totaled, moving, etc.). While I don't like giving excuses, everyone does hit bumps in the road that unexpectedly changes the flow of work. For this I apologize and it is something I am working to improve.

As for the expectation of the TMNT image, that was a piece done in 2007, so my style has changed since then. I had provided many other references to my art and style at the time. If this was a look you were wanting, you should of let me known specifically you wanted that style. I had also released finished art of other commissions that were made prior to yours that also showed my art style. If you had an issue with these styles, you should of let me known.

I am willing to work with you to fix these issues, however I find that this post was done in very poor taste and is unnecessary. I'm sorry about slow communication my inbox is always in the thousands of messages from cosplayers, and things easily get overlooked due to that.

While I am fixing some of the undesired aspects, I cannot completely re-paint this piece since that is way too excessive. I am doing my best to get it to a more desirable state for you. I can only hope you enjoy the final piece when it is completed.

[clevercdn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the update and the explanation, they are both very much appreciated. Again, as I said in my original message I do feel horrible for saying one thing then having to come back with something else.

It is a relief to know that I was not brushed off, as I was feeling, and it was simply a matter of overlooking a reply to let me know you had seen my issues. Though considering this was the first communication I'm not sure it was entirely unnecessary.

That being said, because I know you're aware and have explained some of the details I consider this matter closed and hope we can work through this. Please feel free to PM me through Deviant Art to mesh out some of the finer details if you need to.

[zombienerd.livejournal.com]

>>I had painted over the reference in a completely different layer, added in additional filters and finished it up with sharpening to give it a metallic look.

You traced the reference picture and slapped filters on it.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

Could you clarify something for me?

I had painted over the reference in a completely different layer, added in additional filters and finished it up with sharpening to give it a metallic look

Sounds very similar to tracing, which would be why people think it looks copied-pasted from photos of jewelry on google. But I'm not sure if that is what you meant you did. (rendered/traced the images, which "painted over on a different layer" sounds like to me)

Glad you came in to explain.

You copied and pasted the earrings. Please stop lying.

[holydust.livejournal.com]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9469674/Temp/earringcomparison.jpg

You didn't paint them, all right?

The jewelry isn't "at different angles" at all. That comparison is the JPG just slapped into your picture and moved on top. It lines up perfectly.

It's a copy-paste slap and filter job and it wouldn't be such a big deal if you didn't have the gall to come in here and claim it was an honest paintover. It wasn't.

[web-wyvern.livejournal.com]

I don't think this post really needed to make it onto artist_beware. Could this not have been handled privately? We have no time-frame to decide if the artist was ignoring their commissioner's concerns, of if this is a case of impatient buyer.

No, I don't think it's right to paint over objects and photoshop them in, but it's also clear the artist felt overwhelmed by the specification. In cases like this, the artist needs to communicate their abilities, and the commissioner needs to understand the artists limits.

Had they done a better job of intergrating the items, I suspect this post would not have even come about. No, it's not cool to paint over, but yes, it happens as commonly as adding textures or shaped brushes. It's just done with such skill in other cases, people don't notice!

As it stands, I think this post should be removed so the artist can retain some dignity and help fix the image within reason.

[clevercdn.livejournal.com]

I thought I was fairly detailed with the time-frame, giving exact dates and such. :) I did try to handle it privately (as shown by my last message shown to her) and received nothing in response, not even a "I've read your message and will get back with you".

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

If you guys want to go technical let me point some things out.

The jewelery itself is a work of art. Technically the neither photographer on google, nor the painter here should be making any profit or holding any copyright on them because the DESIGN of the JEWLERY does NOT belong to either of them. The design belongs to the person who made the jewelery, and to a larger effect, the company that produces it. Your still making money on someone's elses design, just by reffing it.

Therefor technically the commissioner had no buisness in the first place to link the jewelery for design replication onto the painting.

But that's okay now-a-days because it's so widely accepted.

Likewise, even when an architech (Like my grandad) designs a beautiful building, photographers often flock to take pictures, put it on post cards, calanders, whatever and they'll make money off of that. Is that fair? After all, my grandfather designed the building. That was his work, effort and so on. Should the photographer be punished for copying something so directly?

Keep in mind that copyright, especially in the case of photography is very very blurry. And no I'm not trying to bash photographers or anything. ;) I love photography, I'm just making a point.

[web-wyvern.livejournal.com]

I was thinking this. But then one step further - when I'm shown designs already drawn by other people the buyer has commissioned, wouldn't that be copyright infringement too; you copying the other artist's work, even though it's the commissioner's creative design. Where does it end? @_@

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, the side-by-side comparison of the earrings is incredibly damning. I do not think those were painted over, but directly tossed onto the image and filtered to be a little sharper. Disappointing honestly.