Beware: Khait / Pilferneko

[nicolyrezk.livejournal.com]

WHO: Khait on Tapestries, pilferneko on FA

WHERE: I commissioned them through Tapestries

WHAT: It was a large picture of 12 chibi-style red pandas (and 1 regular panda) having a Panda Pool Party

WHEN: I commissioned the piece at the beginning of june.

PROOF: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9577239/khaitproblem.jpg

EXPLAIN: At the beginning of june, I commissioned Khait. She wanted the full payment before she was willing to start. Immediately, she began to pester me heavily for payment, saying she wanted to start it and on the 18th, I was able to pay her. After a few weeks of inaction, I started to ask for updates, sending a quick note every few days, as she seemed very eager to work yet there was nothing coming. I eventually received a rough sketch and then some lines, but it was harder and harder to get any progress.

Finally, at the beginning of august, during an emotional fit, she decided she didn't want to do it anymore and told me she was dropping me as a customer. A week later, as there was no refund, I asked where one was and was told that, not only am I not getting a full refund, but that I am going to have to wait until september. They haven't told me how much money I am getting back from what I paid, but I get the feeling it won't be much.

And asking for the specific date on which I'd get my refund led to accusations of wherein I was asked if I 'felt big for attacking a woman' and that I was 'shaking her down'.

This whole thing has been an ordeal and although they say they aren't going to do art anymore, they've done this before but when they've needed money, they've looked for people to commission, so I feel that putting out this warning about my situation is needed.

Am I wrong for wanting a full refund, seeing as they decided to cancel my commission and haven't done much work on it?

Comments

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

If you have any screencaps of your discussions with this person, that would be appreciated.

[nicolyrezk.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, most of the discussion happened on Tapestries and I didn't think to save any screenshots or anything.

I didn't think this would end up happening, as we seemed to be on pretty good terms :x

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

It's difficult to make any kind of call on situations where we don't get to see any of the discussion. To you, you may have been the most patient and understanding commissioner in the world, but it's very often the case that people don't recognise that they are causing a problem.

I'm not saying this is true of you, it's just something we see a lot that makes these things hard to judge.

[leahtaur.livejournal.com]

If she showed you any progress at all, then no, you shouldn't get a full refund no matter how rude she is.

[spyral-out.livejournal.com]

Even though she's the one who called off the work in the first place?

The artists' side

[shyuehwa.livejournal.com]

I was commissioned on June 18th, 2011 by Arcturus for a panda pool party, the set amount was $25, I no longer have logs of this. I began working on it that week a little, I am a pretty slow artist. ( I can screen shot this transaction if necessary to prove the date.)

I was slow going in July due to being violently ill for most of the month, no excuse for a lack of progress I understand, but at the time he was alright with it, I kept him updated, mostly due to him talking to me daily, some times multiple times, even when no progress was available and showed him progress when available. Sometime during this period I agree to coloring it after the original agreement because I honestly could not remember if I agreed to or not : I'm willing to make the assumption I did to keep the customer happy.

Monday August 1st rolls around and there is a change in the commission just needs to be colored, which shouldn't take me too long I figure, another day or two tops. His demeanor changes and becomes aggressive and insulting. I do become annoyed because I don't think there is any need to belittle or try to publicly shame anyone and tell him I will not be finishing his commission.

On Tuesday August 9th we speak again, he never asks how much of a refund he is getting, due to the commission being fully drawn and inked, I have no intention of giving him a full refund, I've never mentioned a full refund or made allusions to it. Instead of asking about the refund details - He demands a full refund and will accept nothing less. He threatens to go to artist beware and publicly slips details about this private transaction to cause more drama then necessary. Instead of being civil and talking, he immediately gloats about going to artist beware.

I only removed the money from my Paypal account because we had a previous positive transaction, and I figured everything would be fine. I'm still surprised at his change in demeanor and will refund him *part* of his money - $10 as soon as I get a deposit into my account which can take quite a while given that I do not have a steady income and have closed my commission status due to university starting back up very soon.

Re: The artists' side

[shyuehwa.livejournal.com]

http://shyuehwa.blogspot.com/2011/08/proof-of-work-completed.html On a side note, there is his commission at the sketched and ink stage of completion. With a layer of stuff that still requires clean up ; his version (that he will be emailed the full size image at the time I can refund) is completed and cleaned.

Re: The artists' side

[mazz.livejournal.com]

I'd avoid using a place you can keep logs to discuss commissions. That way if this happens again you have the logs of it available. It also will make it so you can know if you agreed to color or not. If it becomes habit people may try to take advantage of you.
It would have also made this beware a lot easier to understand as we don't actually know what was exchanged in conversation.

Its' better for your records to conduct business in notes/emails that can be logged.

Re: The artists' side

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

Hmm I did get the impression this would be an example of an overbearing commissioner.

[wyngaed.livejournal.com]

I don't know if she has a ToS, but a lot of artists like to outline what refunds will be like. I personally would not give a full refund if work had been done- even if I was the one to cancel it. If I felt I could no longer work with the customer I would give them the work I had completed and the money for what I hadn't yet done.

[ladysnakebite.livejournal.com]

This is horribly off topic, but I LOVE YOUR ICON.

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

If they've done work on the commission, then yes you are wrong for expecting a full refund.

They haven't told me how much money I am getting back from what I paid, but I get the feeling it won't be much.

Well you spent $25, which is a pretty sweet deal for 13 characters, then getting a partial refund of that is not going to be a huge amount, no.

Finally, at the beginning of august, during an emotional fit,

Even if the artist hadn't posted her side, this sort of wording would make me side-eye your story.

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

Considering the circumstances, I am going to be removing the 'beware' tag for now. But adding a tag for the commissioner.

[feanyx.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I didn't want to get super uppity on this board, but the artist was telling me some of the things that were happening WHEN they were happening. I told her she should post a beware article for the commissioner, since he has a habit of doing this to people. If she could have posted the logs here in the first place (and I told her to please ask the mods for permission), none of this would have ever been an issue. It's disgusting what he could have gotten away with.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

Since there's no proof of anything it's really hard to say who's in the right here.

But! I'm of the firm belief that whoever cancels the commission should be the one to take the loss. I'm a commissioner who almost never commissions sketches or inks so I would be really pissed off if I bought a full colored commission and the artist decided that I would only get a sketch and some money back.

Every industry has to deal with unpleasant customers and this one is no different. You can either decline/refund their money or finish what's been agreed to and tell them to never contact you again. The artist is the one with the power in this situation since they have both the money and the service/product so being able to just drop something and keep the money doesn't exactly seem fair.

[mrst4nkr.livejournal.com]

Completely agree. If an artist cancels the commission (out of the blue), and they have sent you work on it, you should be refunded entirely.

I do find the occasional exception when it comes to harassment or something, but like I said.. "occasional." Sometimes, even when you're being harassed, it is altogether easier to give their money back and let them walk with what you've already made. It saves you some headaches, for sure.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

"She wanted the full payment before she was willing to start. Immediately, she began to pester me heavily for payment, saying she wanted to start it"

You realise wanting full payment up front is completely normal? Especially if you grabbed a commission slot, yes, of course that the artist is going to want payment so they can start the work. This is in case you turn out to be a deadbeat - as OFTEN happens - who says "oh yeah sure I'll have a slot" *silence* *silence* "yeah definitely still want it! Will pay soon!" *silence* "Oh lol sorry no moneys~ next time lol!"

If I had a dollar for every time someone did that...I'd probably have $20. :P

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

Completely agree! I've had people make me wait weeks to months and then say they don't want the slot anymore. I now say there's a week deadline and will usually remind them in the middle of the week, after that, the slot gets given away and they'll have to try again next time.

[ocelotish]

Based on what has been said, it seems like the artist is being fair in giving you a partial refund. I'm not convinced that the original would have been colored, she did substantial work on it and it seems like she didn't cancel it out of the blue.

It seems like you weren't exactly innocent in this case. I understand why you would be nervous about your commission, but it seems like you came across as overly aggressive to the artist, perhaps in phrasing, perhaps in number of contacts. If you have anything where you can disprove this, believe me, I'm all ears, but otherwise I have to just go with what my gut tells me.

However, what I would say in any case, is that if you want the line art without color, yes you should get a partial refund, not a whole one, because you want the portion that the artist made. You don't get to be more than square.

[ocelotish]

Looking/thinking on this more, I'm less sure of why it was cancelled, unfortunately it's a "he said/she said." I'm still not sure if it was supposed to be colored (as very few pieces posted are).

In this case, I would really just ask is whether or not you want the line art. If you do, then I would settle for a partial refund, if not discuss that with the artist. It's very hard for me to see this as "artist canceling out of the blue," but I'm trying to. Same for it being color. If there were no warnings given and you don't want the lineart, then yes, I would say you're entitled to a full refund. If there were no warnings given you'd have no chance to change what might be a problem, and if you thought it was in color and wouldn't have bought it otherwise, same thing. However, that does hinge on whether or not you want the lineart. If you do, consider it a partial transaction.

[dreamerdragoon.livejournal.com]

Since there's no evidence of pretty much anything from either side apart from the fact that, at one time, there was an agreement for a commission, it's impossible to draw any decent conclusion from this entry.

[hellfire99x.livejournal.com]

This is about what I'm thinking, too. Without any logs, it's mostly he said/she said, with a lot of variables in play. :(

Sounds to me like something went terribly wrong somewhere along the way. I'm not at all sure what, but I hope that they will be able to settle their differences and work out an amicable agreement.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

If you've seen sketches, you don't get a full refund.
If she has a pricelist posted somewhere, deduct the cost of a sketch commission from your payment and expect that as a refund.
But honestly, prepaying a $25 commission is fairly normal.
And 13 characters for $25? You've only waited 2 months?
Fast, good, cheap; pick two.

I can kinda see why she wouldn't want to do it anymore, and as long as she gives you a partial refund, she's allowed to change her mind. Not professional maybe, but allowed.

I'm not gonna comment on the emotionally laden parts of this post, considering the lack of.. You know.. Proof that she was being unreasonably upset and your more than well known reputation for being aggressive and unpleasant, especially towards artists who don't give you what you want.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

This 100%. You said it better (and nicer) than I could.

[notorious_hunty.livejournal.com]

T_T Sorry for that deleted post; posted in the wrong spot! I meant to comment on a seperate one, not responding to Thaily!

What I meant to say was that I agree with everyone else - with the lack of evidence other than hearsay, I can't figure out who's at fault.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

Two conflicting stories, no screencaps, it's impossible to say who's wrong or what should be done in the OP scenario.

In general though, I think whoever makes the decision to cancel should be the one to take the financial hit. I don't really understand the viewpoint that, when an artist decides to cancel, the buyer should only be refunded whatever the artist decides the price of a sketch is.

The buyer didn't agree to purchase a sketch. Many buyers have no interest in buying sketches or unfinished work. They didn't agree to that price, either - who's to say that, even if WERE interested in a sketch, they would've been at a particular price? If the artist decides to cancel the agreement, then they have decided to cancel the agreement, and they need to give a full refund. It's pretty unfair to just change your mind and hand the buyer something they didn't agree to and may not have even wanted, and charge a price they didn't agree to and may not have been willing to pay.

Obviously situations where the buyer cancels, or when there's some kind of truly intolerable harassment, are different.

[spyral-out.livejournal.com]

It's pretty unfair to just change your mind and hand the buyer something they didn't agree to and may not have even wanted, and charge a price they didn't agree to and may not have been willing to pay.

MTE

[kikai-saigono.livejournal.com]

Had the commissioner come to her and said he'd fallen on hard times or what have you and wanted a refund, then he would know that he's getting something that is unfinished and the artist should be paid for work done. But like I said earlier, an artist could whip out some really crappy sketch, cancel your commission, and then take the money she thinks it's worth.

You wouldn't have this kind of thing happening in a professional business setting, so why here? It's just a scaled down version of a professional business setting, but there is still money being exchanged. We've always said it doesn't matter if you paid $5 or $500 on a commission, it's still hard earned money you've paid. So I don't understand all the "Well you got a lot of work for just $25 anyways, be happy with it" as if it matters what he paid for it.

Truthfully, if a commissioner was harassing me to the point that I felt I needed to cancel the commission, I wouldn't dig myself into deeper drama with the commissioner by messing around with partial refunds. I'd take whatever work I did and chalk it up to a piece for my portfolio, and put the commissioner on my blacklist. If he's harassing me, I'd refund him and drop communication with him. Period.

If he has a bad reputation as a commissioner or he was harassing her, she should have nipped it in the bud early. I'm not defending the commissioner, I'm just stating what I would have done in this situation and who I believe should be at a loss here. Generally when an artist is fully dedicated to working on a piece of art and the commissioner cancels due to lack of funds/inspiration/what have you, then yes the artist needs to be paid for he work they'd done, because for all they knew they were still holding up their end of the bargain.

But an artist cancelling? She must have known for a while that she wasn't going to be up for finishing the commission, or had at least some idea that she was going to cancel. She does the work she feels like and then blows off the rest. She wants to do that? Fine. But she doesn't get to keep money that she didn't work for. The money paid was for a FINISHED piece of artwork. The commissioner didn't want a full color commission, thinking at the same time that'd he'd be content with a lineart piece as well. He wanted what he paid for, and the artist backed out on the deal. He shouldn't have to pay for something he didn't pay for.

What if someone commissioned a fursuit and the artist felt like blowing off the whole project after just finishing a paw and a tail, but insisted that the commissioner still pay for those? What is the commissioner going to do with a paw and a tail and nothing else? How do they go about commissioning another artist to do everything BUT the other paw and tail? It's just a hassle. Obviously it will always be on a case by case basis, but this it just my opinion on the matter.

Sorry for my super long 2 cents.

[ocelotish]

Now I take the commissioner being harassing as forcing the artist to cancel. Getting a warning for inappropriate conduct, but refusing to modify behavior would be a breech of contract, therefore the commissioner would be responsible for the cancellation. I don't think that I should lose out if the hypothetical commissioner makes the transaction impossible to complete.

In this case, the artist mentioned that a previous transaction with this commissioner went well.

I disagree that she must have known she was going to cancel and therefore only did a lousy job. That's a pretty strong accusation and one that I don't think is founded based on the other chibi work I've seen on her site. Don't let one experience where an artist pulled that color your perception of all artists.

[ocelotish]

One thing that I missed before that makes me reconsider is that the title of the jpg posted on the artist's blog is: "fuckingwahs.jpg" That is not professional.

[bridgeportcat.livejournal.com]

To be fair, arcturus calls his red pandas "wahs" so it makes sense in context

[millislim.livejournal.com]

hmmm...tough one no matter what angle you look at it...

my usual go to way of dealing with difficult commissioners is to just finish the artwork and move along. It may seem like I come out losing but it's hard to look bad when I stayed professional the entire time....as a business not every customer is gonna be lovely...if they were more people would be in business.

As for what to do when artist/commissioner cancels?

For the customer who cancels: (not from lack of professionalism on the artist's part) Customer should only get a refund that reflects the amount of work left to be done on the artwork or no refund at all if you previously stated so in your TOS

For the artist that cancels: (not from lack of professionalism on the customer's part) You only have TWO options imho...full refund or renegotiate the terms of the commission. It's true...what would a commissioner do with a half sketch/half ink piece and a partial refund? It's not their fault that "life happened" so offer to complete the commission to it's next usable stage (clean sketch, inked, flat colored, etc) so that the art maybe salvagable or, at best, presentable.

If people are getting rude, abusive, demanding...ignore my advice above and take it as case by case.

I would also like to remind the forum that while $25 for 13 characters is MUCH cheaper than most artists would charge the artist above seemed perfectly fine with that price so why keep mentioning it? It's not part of the complaint by either the OP or the artist and should have no bearing on the general concenus of this beware posting (which is more of an informational/discussion posting at this juncture)

[oceandezignz.livejournal.com]

Not going to comment on anything other than this:

A post like this is really a good example why you shouldn't take commission orders outside of email or some sort of online order form (that will go to email). Emails are a controllable, and steady, log-able resource (without the threat of banning) that would have helped either sides case at this point.

As this shows a point of even friend's and their business ventures can eventually sour, a paper trail is much more powerful than a he said/she said type of game in this comm.

It can be cumbersome, it can be annoying, you might wonder why change venues when it can just get done then and there... its all to save bacon. Yours (be you artist or commissioner) precisely.

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

excellent advice o.o

[shyuehwa.livejournal.com]

I don't want to go into everything that has happened or why I could not do this or that but payment to Arcturus for his refund was sent via paypal on August 26, 2011 14:20 EST, screen cap can be posted upon request. This transaction is as complete as it will ever be, thank you for all of the input through out this entire span.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

Thanks for coming in and letting us know. I have to wait until Arcturus comments or edits the post saying they got the refund to officially mark this 'resolved', but I just wanted to say I appreciate you leaving the message.

[shyuehwa.livejournal.com]

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ogH3Ec9eVy2rLyylX3xsow?feat=directlink ( I am not posting this on my blog.) I'm posting this because well, I don't think he's checking this. As I said before I consider this resolved - not positively, but resolved.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Whatever that is gives a page not found.