Requesting a refund

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Howdy!

It appears I'm in a bit of a bind, and I'm not sure what to do if the artist in question responds negatively to my refund request.

I commissioned an artist only a few days ago for a two character adult image. I paid her promptly, and she said she would not be able to work until next week. All of this was ok for me. I then later learned that at least two of her commissions were partially traced from porn videos, and was shown proof. Needless to say, I am actually very uncomfortable with the thought that my commission could possibly be traced. I sent her a simple note saying:

Hi!

I'm sorry to have to ask, but may I kindly request a refund?

- Taasla"

This is the part where I need advice. I don't really know what to say should she ask me why I am requesting a refund. I don't want to blatantly accuse her of anything, but the overlays I have been shown is enough to make me not want to finish. She has no ToS as far as I've been able to find.

Edit: I spoke to the artist, was honest with her, and found out she has already spent my money. =\ We've worked out a deal where she will finish my work, and I'll just take it as a lesson learned.

Comments

[angeling.livejournal.com]

If you don't want to outright state why, you could just say something came up and you need the money, and since she hasn't started yet you figured it would be okay to cancel your order.

[skiota.livejournal.com]

uhm....well if you don't want to be direct you could always lie and tell her that you had an 'unexpected financial responsibility' involving your car/health/computer/something that breaks easily and often and that you really need the money back.

[hellebore.livejournal.com]

She didn't provide you with a ToS before accepting it? That's trouble for both of you. If she tries to fight it, remind her that you didn't see anything written about refunds...

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Yikes. Honestly, I think being upfront and politely honest might be a good idea. I personally would want to let them know that I've seen some damning evidence of traced-work and I'm uncomfortable with following through the process. Sometimes it's best that the artist know why they're losing your business.

However, I'm wondering if she has a TOS, as Hellebore said up there. It could spell trouble either way.

[raeraesama.livejournal.com]

I'd just say something like unforseen circumstances or personal reasons.

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

I agree here. Don't BS anyone if you feel uncomfortable about the possibility they will trace.

Lying about 'things coming up' only looks poorly people who ACTUALLY have very serious life issues come up and need a refund.

Plus, agreeing with Neolucky, let this artist know you aren't cool with tracing, it might help get them to change if they know they might lose business over it.

[stripedpony.livejournal.com]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Honesty is the best policy.

[ocelotish]

I would just ask for a refund for personal reasons, or say that you've reconsidered and decided that you wouldn't be happy with the finished product.

I wouldn't lie about why you wanted the refund, but you don't have to be overly specific either. If she is making a derivative image that violates copyright, that is not what you paid for and you deserve a full refund. I'm pretty sure that legal activity is assumed in all contracts.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I think you should tell her exactly why. And definitely don't lie about it.
I mean, be polite, but I think it's for the best the artist knows exactly why people are withdrawing?

How did you pay? If they refuse, I'd say try to do a paypal claim "not as described" (I mean, getting a trace for a commission isn't what you think you're buying...).

[jurann.livejournal.com]

A fair amount of artists actually use reference from porn mags and films, honestly. I'm not sure there's a real big issue with it, though I can understand why you might be uncomfortable with it. Some really big name artists like Wookiee and K'sharra openly admit to using references nearly 100% of the time when doing porn pieces. I would honestly just politely ask the artist if that is what they intend to do for your commission, and if so and it makes you uncomfortably, then politely decline and request a refund. I'm curious though, personally, why using references offends you?

[fenris-lorsrai.livejournal.com]

This seems the best phrasing of all the suggestions that you don't feel you'd be happy with the finished product.

If you want to toss in that you don't want to waste their time with lots of revisions, that may encourage them to issue the refund to avoid getting into a cycle of endless revisions.

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

I don't think Taalsa has any issues at all with referencing (I seem to remember her being for it in the other post about it), it's the tracing part that is off putting.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

It's less about referencing, more about tracing then selling the work on commission. Most people here understand referencing is a useful tool. The OP is saying they're uncomfortable with the artist -tracing- their image.

[ocelotish]

This.

The issue here doesn't appear to be referencing photos, but rather the artist is creating a derivative image for sale. That is violating the copyright of the original and is therefore illegal.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Wookiee takes his own photos for reference - at least that's the impression I got looking at his "how I do this" guide a long time ago.

The issue is usually a) if the person is /heavily/ referencing photos /they did not take themselves/, is a copyright violation.
ALso b) if the person is tracing rather than referencing, the result usually looks bad (since they are not understanding the underling subtleties of shape)

[jurann.livejournal.com]

In the finished piece, what's the difference between tracing and referencing and how do you prove it? I don't see how a tracing would be any different from referencing since you have to make modifications for character details and changing the characters to furries anyway. When you overlay a referenced piece onto the original photo, it will often look just like it, same as a tracing would. This is the hair I'm splitting about the difference between the two. I think there's also a pretty broad line about using reference in order to make "derivative works" regardless of the technique used, I mean printing someone else's photo in a publication is very different from using the scene in a photo as reference (even if traced) for making an original piece of artwork. Hell, if you make humans into furries, I'm also pretty sure that falls under Parody laws in the US.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

In the finished piece, what's the difference between tracing and referencing and how do you prove it?

Overlay.

I don't see how a tracing would be any different from referencing

Tracing looks wonkier. A reference will not match lines exactly. Also, imho people are STILL doing it wrong even if they aren't tracing if they are referencing so heavily that it's obvious it had to come from one thing (generic poses and actual parody where recognition is required to fully enjoy the piece do not count)
Also, derivative works of copyrighted pieces are illegal, even if rarely prosecuted

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

Think of it like this: when you write a research paper, do you outright plagiarize/copy-paste or do you merely reference with proper credit given on quotes and/or concepts/information?

Tracing is plagiarizing, where as referencing is just taking the concept or information (anatomy/lighting/texture/ect) from the image and putting it into your own work.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Pretty much this. There's a vast difference between referencing something to improve upon your own skill, and tracing to cheat your way through creating something.

If I reference a photo for a pose, I don't copy the direct pose - I look at how the arm bends, or how the torso is twisted and try to apply that to my own image. Tracing is just overlaying the image and tracing around it and calling it your own when it's clearly not. There's no "hair splitting" there, they are two different things.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I'm probably more of a stickler than most because I'm into comics and you *have* to be able to bang stuff out from ypur head quickly, but I pretty much never look at another piece when drawing. I draw from my head first, then might look up refs if something seems off or I forget how things connect, etc.

[ocelotish]

This is is a bit of a nitpick, but I'd disagree with you on tracing. If the artist in question was using their own photo (or otherwise not violating copyright), and doing the same thing as in their examples or claiming something else (not false advertising), then they could trace. We certainly know that artists can trace their own work without getting the "traced" look so I think the "traced" look you're referring to is better defined as "lazy lines." This is explained by Walt Stanchfield here. A good artist won't follow the photo blindly even if tracing, so you don't get the lazy lines.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

Good summary!

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I probably wasn't clear; nothing wrong with tracing your own photos! How good it looks depends entirely on the artist's skill.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

"I don't want to blatantly accuse her of anything, but the overlays I have been shown is enough to make me not want to finish."

You are going to have to tell the artist that this is the reason you want your money back if they ask why.

If you really feel that uncomfortable telling them then just take the 'loss' and don't commission the artist again.

[ocelotish]

Oh in that case we're agreed! Just in the other thread it seemed to boil down to "Tracing is bad and you get 'traced' look, which just isn't always the case. (Then again, a more advanced artist will be less slave to the image they're tracing.)