What's the big deal?

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

So recently a few of my furiends on my FL have been freaking out over the fact some This person on Photobucket has uploaded some of their art to his account. Now mind you he is not claiming it to be his own, or taking credit for it, and even left the signatures in, but a my friends still are really upset he has uploaded their artwork. I really don't see what the big deal is about. As long as this person isn't claiming the art work is his own, I really don't see what the issue is.
But either way I thought I'd ask ya'lls opinion on the matter: Is it considered art thieft to upload someone else's art with out their permission onto your Photobucket account?

Comments

[acrimonius.livejournal.com]

Redistribution rights. Most of us amateur artists want to be the person to go to to see our artwork, not some random guy with a Photobucket account and free time.

Assuming the kid isn't trying to take credit for the work (there have been and will always be thieves who don't erase signatures :P), the kid could have just asked nicely, and I'm fairly sure few of the artists would have objected to having a few select pieces shown off by someone who isn't them. Just my two cents.

[drake-anaya.livejournal.com]

I think if you're going to have just a gallery to display different people's artwork, you should
1) ask for permission, and
2) link back to the artists' page.

if you're just using Photobucket as a general storage space, you ought to select the option that makes your images viewable only to yourself, but...

this isn't really theft, as much as it might be illegal or unwanted reproduction of the works. there's definitely some official Dungeons and Dragons stuff in there.

I'd suggest that if an artist sees their work there and doesn't want it there, they simply contact photobucket and indicate that it's illegal reproduction.

[drake-anaya.livejournal.com]

This user appears to have another gallery here (http://photobucket.com/albums/v103/Nikera/Dragons/), FYI.
...and apparently here (http://photobucket.com/albums/c263/nikera3/Dragons/) as well. Have fun :)

[fierycatthing.livejournal.com]

I think it's all a matter of the artist's personal preference on their art being reposted.

Some artists are really touchy about others reposting their work. Without direct credit, a link to their website for example, they feel their work stolen. Some even don't want their art reposted, period. Other artists just don't mind as long as the person reposting isn't claiming it as their own and their signature and copyright are visable.

While I see nothing wrong with that photobucket archive, since it seems someone is just collected good dragon images and stored them in one place, I can see where some might get a little angry over it.

~RedFeather

[mix-hyenataur.livejournal.com]

As people say to me: free publcity.

But those individuals should ask nicely to take them down, and he prolly will.

the kid just has a dragon fetish, and uses these as references to 'murrpurr' to every time he's bored and lonely.

Lol, I do the same by stockpiling pictures and etc on my computer to 'murrpurr' to.

'Waste of most space' list:
1. Transformation
2. Hyenas
3. VCL Horrors
4. Ogrish.com (aka, gore)
5. Engrish

[mix-hyenataur.livejournal.com]

going on 200 gigs.

Seriously.

i raped VCL, Yerf, Yaoi, transfur, etc of ALL their pics.

(not)

But i know those who have, and I always do have a collection that i flip through at night to make me snuggle up into bed with in thought.

[forsaken-malice.livejournal.com]

HAH!!! morons... It's not an issue to me. To me it's more like if someone right-click saved my art to their harddrive... only in this case it's saved to photobucket. Shit, seriously, yo.

[yami-griffin.livejournal.com]

personaly I agree with you.
i mean I'm always happy when I get an Email from someone asking to use a peice for some reason, just becuase so long as thier not making money off of the useage, I'm pretty much fine with it.
But cases like is is what a water mark is for. thoe that ask to use a picture, I always tell you at least have a link to my site or one of my galleries, just so someone has a better way of finding me then a faded, almost unreadable signature.
i've never seen the reasoning behind those that get so bent out of shape about redistrobrution... to me thats free advertising but to each his own.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Doesn't bother me so much, but they really shouldn't have it public. Nothing wrong with collecting, though, just should keep it private. :/

[airukitsu.livejournal.com]

I don't think it is a big deal and anyone that is going apeshit about it should calm down. Like they say, he isn't altering them or removing signatures. He is simply putting a collection of his favorite pictures together in one place. Or at least that is what it appears to be.
If any of my art was in there I wouldn't care. :/ He isn't claiming them or anything, and yeah it is rude to just save them like that, but that is unavoidable and the least of your worries. It can't be helped really unless you completely remove your art fromt he web. It happens, a lot more than we even think.

So yeah, whatever. If people want to freak out about it, then they should just try to tell the guy to remove the artwork or something, I dunno.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

*apologizes for saving some of your art D:* I agree with you Airu everywhere except the saving polocy. I have alot of Aido's art - mostly Pyr and kendii- saved for reference, and I have your and MANY PEOPLES ref sheets saved too, as well as some art. Not as much as before when I was just a rabid talentless FAN XD but some none the less.

[airukitsu.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I meant on the internet. XD Of course, saving things on your own computer is fine. I dunno maybe it isn't all that different. I really said that to try and relate to the people that don't like his actions, to keep all happy. Personally I don't care, but some people may think it is rude.

Like I have a friend that saves things on the net in places like that because she doesn't have a computer at home to save things on, and she still wants to be able to find those pictures when she wants them. I think that is all he is doing. Some artists dont like their artwork compiled like that, but *shrug*

Ah, I dont mind if you do that, heck I do it too, if I didn't I would get everyone all wrong. XD

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

XD yeah, I see your point. I just figure thats pretty much the same thing this kid is doing, since there isn't any proof of you know, him posting elsewhere XD

[the-snappy-wolf.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's a big deal. As long as he isn't altering the images or claiming them as his own then it wouldn't bother me. I only get a little miffed if someone tries to use one of my drawings to 'represent their character' sence most of my drawings are of my own characters. None the less, no biggie in my opinion.

[madd-tom-kit.livejournal.com]

We seem to be the only fandom that get upset over people using art for reference....or heck even collecting art....soem people are like sitting at libaries and don't have HD space......well maybe like the space of a floppy disk but ya know.....It should be all ok it's not a life or death situation...

[tenna.livejournal.com]

I personally see nothing wrong with it.

BUT. I wouldn't say people who aren't happy with it are going "apeshit crazy". People have the right to not want their art reposted in any way and that should be respected.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

It's kinda disrespectful.
Taking something and publically reposting it without permission. A lot of artists tolerate it because it's a common occurance, but there are laws against it and well.. It's just not polite. How hard is it to ask an artist before reposting?

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Also, this is why it's so important that you sign your work.
If an image is reposted people will know who it's from so they can A. find more of your work B. Contact you and tell you your art's been resposted, wether you take action or not is up to you ofcourse. Though some people have a very obvious "do not redistribute" policy like Frank Gembeck.

[larylich.livejournal.com]

Nobody has the right to post someone's art in a public forum without concent of the original artist, unless they have bought the rights from the artist. Case closed. And, no, buying the piece does not mean you have bought those rights as well- you just bought the art/print/tangible piece.

The artist has complete control over how and where the work they created (sold or not) is displayed. The arguement of, "It's free advertising" is irrelevant.

If you respect the artist, ask permission. If you can't, don't do it.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

Photobucket is not a public forum. It's a photo hosting account. And in all honest, artists need to get the stick out of their ass. the whole CC movement has gone too far, but I still believe that if someone wants to share MY ART with a friend, be it on LJ or website or whatever, so long as they don't say it's theirs, they should be happy with it! I know I'd be honored. Of course, some artists claim they draw for ONLY THEMSELVES111one but the truth is, if you're posting it on the internet, you want recognition, so when they get it, they oughta shut their trap.

[larylich.livejournal.com]

That, "stick in their ass" is their legal rights. Posting art on the next is an excellent way to gain commissions, and art contracts. Advertising yourself shouldn't be punished by attaching the misguided notion that the work free game. The notion that just because you want to see your work = giving it away is a logical fallacy.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what, "you feel should be": the work is protected. Our society doesn't give artists an easy ride as it is, so advocating taking away their rights, or sneering at them for protecting what is theirs, is just mean spirited. I'm pretty tired of this feeling, "I can do whatever I want" self entitlement- it's completely disrespectful to artists.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

It's not. Honestly, artists are ten times too paranoid these day. So what? Someone likes your work? Isn't that a compliment? Photobucket is a hosting account- so unless you show me somewhere this person says OH LOOK AT THE COOL DRAGON! Or I MADE UP THIS SPECIES CALLED CHIMERION AND ARMAINA DREW ONE FOR ME [In -my- case]. Art is for everyone. If you wanna take something I drew, and show someone, say 'I found this cool picture on the internet, isn't it cool' then I'm gonna be happy! Art theft is a big deal, I know first hand as many artists do- but I'm not gonna bother someone for LIKING my work.

[larylich.livejournal.com]

You're mistaking "LIKING" someones work, with taking liberties with someone's copywrited work.

Nothing is wrong with liking someone's work and privately showing it to your friends. You are correct- art is for everyone in this sense.

There is everything wrong with publiclly displaying someone else's work with no permission to do so.

It's great that you don't have problems with reposting YOUR work, but don't impose that on others. Recieving a compliment should be connected with surrendering IP.

As for Photobucket- its public. Anyone can sign up for an account.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

LIKING AN ARTISTS WORK IS NOT TAKING AWAY THEIR RIGHTS. Lets get that straight RIGHT NOW. When I was a kid, I had dozens and dozens of pictures saved and I would REGULARLY share these pictures with my friends. HELL, I share good art with my friends now. You people get too upset over shit like this, honestly.

It's not their 'legal rights', dear. This kid, for example, really likes people's dragon art. He saved it on his harddrive, and put it in a photobucket account so that he could go back and get them later.

Photobucket is not a public forum, okay? Yes, anyone can sign up, but in general, people don't go into it, look at other people's stuff in their account and most accounts are set to be private.

It's just plain NOT theft and not infringement. You wanna know theft? Dear, I know theft, I know infringement, I know copyright, I know identity. I was the right hand man of Luka when she did the Banrai Files. I'm also an artist who has been dealing with the reprecussions of said files, which I have no regret in, for some time now. I know all about theft and violation. This is not. This person is not selling the art, they are not putting it on T-Shirts. They are not saying they drew it, they are not putting it on their own webspace, they are not claiming to be Tacimur or Armaina or NeonDragon or Ulario. They are not PUBLICALLY displaying it. Someone went through alot of trouble to find this account, since we don't go at random 'Ah I wonder if someone has saved my art recently' and type in random usernames. Photobucket is like an online photo folder. All they've done is save the art, because they like it, and probably don't want to use up space on their computer for it.

If you wanna bitch and moan about infringement, do so here: http://copyleftmovement.deviantart.com/ , and leave the art FANS alone.

[larylich.livejournal.com]

Oh my! Looks like I struck a nerve! Lets keep the condicending tone out of this shall we... dear?

First. You are correct in liking an artist is not stealing their rights. I've never said that. Publicly posting thier stuff w/o premission IS. So, glad we're keeping things straight.

Second. YOU need to reread copy right law. Especially the part where the where the artist retains all rights to redistributation unless writen concent is given. You don't need to be selling it, just reposting it in a public form. It's that simple. Selling is of course a no-no, but that's not the original topic. Stop using "Appeal to Authority" arguementative fallacies.

Lastly, Photobucket. "Image hosting & Online photo albums. Publish and share your photos online!" as it states on the upper left of their front page. YES. THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM. The very fact that someone could look around and find the work proves it. It doesn't matter that the work might be, "hard to find" there- again that fact is irrelivent. If the person had marked the folder as "private" would change this debate, as a random person couldn't get in no matter how much work they put into it.

Look, if you want to SUPPORT and HELP an artist, why not show links to their art where you know your friends will be looking. Like, say, your LJ page? You promote the artist that way, direct viewers to the artist web page where they can interact with artist directly. Now you've done everything you've set out to. Anything else is just taking liberties.

And, no, I'm not going anwyhere else. This is a public forum, and I'm not leaveing because you don't like what I have to say.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

http://krimson-katt.deviantart.com/

I think we both struck a nerve but I was too polite for him to flame me?
He did take the effort to go to my DA account and leave one lame comment (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/24471452/) on the only image I have in that gallery, which is a parody on something else anyway :P

What a winner.
Good moment to ask the new mods if there's rules against community members who go to other unrelated sites and troll them because they don't agree with the person they're trolling.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

Oo I wasn't flaming you. I was being as sarcastic as you were. Sorry if you thought it was offensive, the little tag three was there to... tell you it wasn't. And I'm not trolling. If I were posting 50hitlers or something, I can understand that. This is more of a debate or argument. Just because people are arguing on the internet doesn't make it a troll. Oo

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Aah, it's so hard to identify sarcasm on-line. They should make tags.

About the discussion tho, in the end it's between the reposter and the copyright holder. There is a law against unauthorized redistribution. You can respect an artist for shrugging and considering it free advertising, or you can not respect an artist for wanting it to be taken down (or even throwing a "shitfit"). Art is a very personal thing and reason aside people can get very emotional about it.

Photobucket IS a public forum and though not many may do it people CAN browse the public archives, like the one in this discussion. That's what makes it redistribution and without permission there's always a chance the original copyright holder will take action against it, and that's their right.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Sorry if I came off as an ass! I never flame art, even pathetic and bad stuff. Oh I'll type something up, then go NAWWW and just snigger about it quietly. They really should, but as I said, thats why I add a tagthree XD

I just think people are being real assholes about it. I mean, I just see soooooo many people getting pissed that 'an eleven year old traced my stuff' and it's like... wow. The online art community allows even the worst of artists in, and everyone's pissed that some eleven year old is tracing? Just TELL THEM NOT TO SAY PLEASE AN THANKS. :D

Point is, everyone is getting upset over nothing here. The isn't really anything they can do. They can't contact the owner because there is no information about him or her, and reporting them to photobucket because someone uploaded pictures to a picture uploading site is... well... foolish and won't get anyone anywhere.

Plus, in general, guy above is either a proffessional asshole, or like you, mistook internet words as being meaner than they are, I have to continue pissing him off on principle. :3 People just take things 2 SRSLY.

Hearts to ya tho, I actually happen to have alot of respect for you (Seen your posts on Drama Awesome, here... alot of places.)

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I contacted a number of artists who's art was up there, they can decide wether they want it up or not and if not, contact Photobucket to take it down. And they will, why risk a lawsuit for a customer who's not even a paying customer? Not that small furry artists will sue (as much as some would like to) but companies will, especially in sue-happy America.

I've gotten a few notes back, all thank me for keeping an eye out regardless of wether they want it taken down or not, and it is nice that other people keep an eye out for you. I know I appreciate it when people tip me off on rips/reposts.
Especially for newer artists theft/reposting can hit really hard, it takes time for people to see things in perspective and telling them "Why are you so angry? They're just fans!" isn't really going to speed up the process, it'll just piss them off more.

And they do have a reason to be pissed off, nobody likes it when someone else takes credit for their work. Not artists, not anyone who works period.
It takes time for people to learn to choose their battles, which is worth it and which isn't, effort vs. pay-off and all that.

[dunaerin.livejournal.com]

But why even go through the trouble of threatening to sue? I understand contacting artists, but I think it would be going a little too far on that front.

His art isn't even posted up there. He's pissed that I have a different opinion and expressed it. :3

[thaily.livejournal.com]

"But why even go through the trouble of threatening to sue?"

Ask companies like Warner Brothers, Diseny, Sony etc.

[tania.livejournal.com]

Point is, everyone is getting upset over nothing here.

Some artists do seem to have an... overly robust sense of caution, don't they?

But keep in mind that 'nothing' can turn into 'something' pretty damn quickly. KAK started out as a dumb kid who occasionally traced Kylen's art, and we all know how that turned out.

Many of the best artists are simply -plagued- by art thieves.

Other artists have discovered their work for sale on t-shirts.

Almost everyone here has observed this kind of thing, and yes, it makes them cautious. They'd rather nip a problem in the bud than let it go and possibly regret it later.

[tania.livejournal.com]

That said, my personal opinion is that it doesn't upset me to have some kid save and store my art to view later. Situations like this are why I almost always put my name and URL on the bottom of my images; unofficial image sharing can be really good publicity.

I also believe it's an imperfect world and a highly imperfect internet, and that if we put work up publically, it's going to be pinched and redistributed sooner or later. Work that I don't want stolen, I don't upload. Work that I don't want shown to anyone but friends, I upload to a secret passworded folder.

I believe people should have the right to publically share art within the terms of the law, however, and there are laws to protect artists from illegal redistribution.

[larylich.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I don't take Kasai's posts as trolling. We have different views on the subject but that's the point of a debate. ;)

[sand-dragon.livejournal.com]

I'm not so much angry anymore then I am annoyed. The more I look at it and through the stuff, I realise this is probably a young kid who doesn't know any better. Three of my pictures are already in one gallery and he has two others. He's been banned from DA for uploading his work there, whether by mistaking DA for something like Photobucket or whatever.

To me, it is theft, but not a serious case. It does sort've rest on individual differences. Some aren't upset and others are. I'm kinda both flattered and annoyed. Now, had he edited the signatures out, I'd be a little more skeptical.

[mirsathia.livejournal.com]

Well, since it was me who made the mass-mail.. *grins*

I myself was informed by a friend, and was extremely amused that not one, but two of my pictures made it up on the gallery.

I didn't want my art up there, and so I contacted Photobucket to get the images removed. They did so promptly. I also tried to contact Nikera, but got to response.

I went through the images and searched for and found names for only perhaps a third to half of them - lots of the pictures aren't signed, and the majority aren't website watermarks, just hand signatures.

I did the work and emailed everyone that I could find because, like Thaily said, regardless of what you do with a work, it IS disrespectful to take and post that work elsewhere without an artist's permission beforehand. It's most definitely NOT that difficult to take 15 minutes out of your day and shoot off a quick email saying, "Hi there, I like your work, can I add your picture(s) [image] to a Photobucket account of mine for archiving purposes? Thanks!"

It's in one of the very first parts of Photobucket's TOS that unauthorized reproduction of images is illegal - and that's what Nikera was doing. I didn't find it a big deal, but nevertheless I didn't want my pictures up there, and I hadn't authrized the use of my images. I emailed everyone else to give them the option to have theirs taken down.

[bailzzararco.livejournal.com]

When I put someone up in the internet I assume the risk that the art might get stolen. Although I don't like it getting stolen, I am not that upset about it so long as my name is still attached. I don't draw good enough to be ripped off, but I can certainly understand it if someone gets mad if theire art is stolen and their name deleted, which is just plain wrong wrong wrong!

[neongryphon.livejournal.com]

It’s all down to illegal reproduction. If a person is going to reproduce images like this, then they need to cover their backside and make sure they’ve gained the relevant permission from the artist(s). This isn’t just a matter of manners, but the law, and anyone can make a perfectly acceptable/legal archive of images online by obtaining this permission first. No cat-fight required.

When ‘innocently’ uploading to places like photobucket, there’s always the question of ‘is this person posting these hosted images around the net in places I don’t want to see it?’ For example, I won’t have my artwork posted alongside any adult material, or RP profiles for obvious reasons.

The guiding rule is: ask an artist for permission first! That way you know you’re safe.

[dragon-of-hope.livejournal.com]

personaly, long as they are not claiming it as thier own and selling it, i wouldn't mind.
but if it bothers her, then i think the person should respect that..

[vertizontal.livejournal.com]

Looks like they are just sharing, harmless really, its not like its being posted on Fchan ..might just be that they use the images as characters they RP too.

And they CAN choose to make it private.

Though, I think it can be reported for having that dragon porn, its not allowed on Photobucket.

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

This is why I put my email address and full name on every finished or almost finished piece of art online.

If someone decides to upload to photobucket without altering the art then, well, people can get a hold of me.

I stopped worrying about this aaaages ago. :)

Not that anyone steals my furry art any more, mind you.