looking for advice on reposting art

[n.livejournal.com]

I was leafing through a few pages, and I haven't seen a post directly addressing this, but if their is one, I must have missed it.

Only recently, I have decided to take on commissions for a a meager price and someone had taken an interest in it. I was completely estatic, and I've just now completed the art. However, this commissioner paid me with an e-check, which will clear in a day or so now (from the original commission date).

Originally, I found this to be a problem, but after communicating with them we agreed thatI would not hand over the art until I saw the money in my paypal. So things had cleared up there.

Now as I finished their commissions, I went ahead and sent them a note, telling them that the work has been done and I'll be posting when I see the money. I also made a request that they not repost my art to their gallery.

Some people are fine with commissioners reposting their art so long as they get credit and linkbacks, but I'm not really comfortable nor okay with that. And eventually I got a reply back saying that it's simply 'what they do, because they have no artistic skill of their own and they commission art FOR their gallery.'

The way they've replied make me feel like they're going to disregard what I've asked and they're going to do it anyway.
The thing is, I have the art, I'm waiting on payment because they chose to pay me in a format that I have previously stated that I do not accept. Am I in any position to make this sort of request? And should my commissioner respect that?

I currently don't have a TOS, as I've only started out taking commissions and I don't feel like making a huge deal out of it, seeing as I'm asking for $3 at most for my art. I have one in the works, but for smaller commissions I don't feel like its necessary.

In addition to this, I've also sold a character to this same commissioner for a higher amount as it came with additional art pieces. The payment for that character has yet to go through as well (they paid in another e-check), and we made the same agreement about handing over the character's art that we did for the commission.

I've commissioned a few pieces for this character from several different artists (mostly off-FA).
And I don't feel right in letting them repost several of these pieces to their gallery as well, but as I didn't draw the art for several of them (some of the drawings of this character ARE my own), do I still have a right to tell them no?

I have yet to reply to their last note, and I'm looking for advice on what to do before I reply. I don't feel that it's necessary to make their name public as this situation is still civil between us, but should things take a turn for the worse, I will.

edit: after explaining myself and talking it out with the commissioner, we have reached an acceptable compromise for the both of us. thanks for the advice, i'll be sure to mark this up as a lesson learned for the future.

Comments

[aerospiritual.livejournal.com]

truth be told, and I'm going to be perfectly honest; if I commissioned an artist, who had no terms of service and made no mention as to their feelings regarding their work being reposted and was told after the transaction, I'd be pretty annoyed. no, make that really annoyed.

I suppose you could look at it in this regard; what is the overall point in paying someone for art of your own characters if you're unable to share it and show other people?

I'm not saying you're wrong in your feelings, but if you ultimately are not comfortable with people reposting and sharing the art they commission, into their own galleries, even with credit, then you probably shouldn't be getting involved in the commission business.

most people out there, don't buy art because it not only makes them feel good, but because they enjoy sharing and showing off the various interpretations of their characters and/or ideas. you might want to think of it this way; you pay someone to make you a painting for your wall, and when you get the work, you're excited, you're happy- but then you're told that it cannot be displayed and must be kept in a box while the artist themselves are free to show off the work and your ideas.

[blackberrypie.livejournal.com]

I kinda have to agree with this. I know my heart sinks when someone says I can't post their picture anywhere even with credit. I mean I wouldn't even mind if they had a huge watermark with their website address on it. Just being able to show off what I got means a lot to me.

And I personally love when people enjoy something I did for them so much that they post it and show it to all their friends. I've actually gotten a bit of business from that! :D

[p3nsive.livejournal.com]

Yeah, seconding this.

[ginkaruja.livejournal.com]

Further more, commissions in fandoms is a bit different than the commissions for portraits and pieces in the 'normal' art community. Most furs show their work off to other furs and there's many who keep it online and in folders, where someone who commissions a piece of their pet is most certainly going to hang it on their walls for company, or those who commission a painting of a landscape to decorate their place of business. Not to say that some of the fandom people don't post art on their walls for even 'non-fandom' company to see, I just don't think it's the common intent.

[skulldog.livejournal.com]

Couldn't say this better myself.

As both an artist that does commissions, and commissions a ton of art myself, knowing up front what I can and can't do with art is key for who I commission. If I can't share my art in some form, that lessen my desire to buy from an artist, and likewise I give free rein to those that pay me, with what they wish to do with reposting the art I do for them.

[rhianna-muir.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I got a free sketch from an artist on AS/FA awhile back and wanted to give it to a friend as a present. I didn't realize that she (the artist) didn't allow her drawings to be reposted anywhere until after I had uploaded it and she commented on it demanding it be taken down. She was upset that it got more faves than it did in her gallery, even though some of my watchers watched her when they wouldn't have done so normally.

What really upset me about it was I had to wait nearly two months before I could show it to my friend, all because she wouldn't let me upload it or redistribute it at all.

Really good artist, but I'm not going to commission her for anything because of her "do not upload, redistribute or edit" rules.

[four-calamities.livejournal.com]

If you didn't inform the client prior to the money exchanging hands that you didn't want them to be reposting the work, then that's pretty unfair for them, as most people do assume that it's perfectly fine to share what an artist has done for them if nothing is mentioned from the beginning.

While I won't say that commissioning might not be the right thing for you if you don't want people to share what you've custom made for them (them sharing does result in greater business), but if it is something that truly bothers you, you may want to reconsider. The art will likely be shared one way or another. But is does seem one-sided to not allow your customer to showcase your handywork while allowing yourself to display it as you please (I'm assuming that you're uploading your commissions to your own gallery).

If reposting is something that truly bothers you, either make a TOS or flat out inform every customer you take that you don't want them to do this. Telling them after the money is spent and the work is done is unfair to them, as for many, it can be a deal-breaker for whether to commission someone or not.

[n.livejournal.com]

Technically, no money has been exchanged AT ALL.
And there won't be an actual exchange for another two days, so all that sits in my paypal are the notices that the payment won't clear until dates xx and xx.

I felt like I was in the right to make that sort of request because I haven't been physically paid.

And I've always been a bit uncomfortable with my art being reposted as I've had some unfavorable results come of it in the past.

[shiftergoddess.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit confused on the last part. You didn't draw the commission or the commission was of a character you personally own?
If the latter, then yes i would say you have a right to disallow art (commission or otherwise) of your personal characters to be posted elsewhere. But if this is just a run of the mill commission of the buyer's characters i would say no.

Echoing what's already been said, most commissioners buy art to add to their personal collection. How they display that collection varies from an online gallery, to a website, to a personal folder they keep locked away on their computer. It's a little hard, not to mention disheartening, for someone who buys art for that purpose to learn after the fact that they can't post it.

I would write up a ToS, even for the small stuff. It doesn't just provide you and your commissioners with protection but it can also be a good way for you to say everything about how your process works without repeating yourself or disappointing someone just as money changes hands.

[magusmanx.livejournal.com]

For the last part, from what it seems is they sold a character design to the person that commissioned them. They had a lot of art of that character they commissioned from other artists, that went with that design. The Artist/Seller does not want some of those images reposted in the other person's gallery.

[magusmanx.livejournal.com]

If I were in your position at the moment, I'd either let them post it, or refund them their money. For future business, you need to inform them upfront that you do not want them to post art in their galleries.

[lurkerwisp.livejournal.com]

Let me get this straight.

In that last bit about having sold your character to him you mention having commissioned art in your gallery of the character.

So it's okay for you to put art you commissioned in your gallery but it's not okay for someone else to put art commissioned from you in theirs? That doesn't seem particularly fair.

[n.livejournal.com]

I've never posted commissions that I've gotten from other artists to my own personal galleries.

[eveshka.livejournal.com]

Here's a theoretical as to why you might wish to rethink your stance.

I commission you for some art and when I get it, I'm ecstatic. I love it. I post it in my galleries, on my FB and my LJ and generally make a scene about how awesome this art is and how you are the next great fanart artist.

My friends get so caught up in my enthusiasm that they commission you because I liked your art of my character enough to share it.

Word of mouth is a powerful form of advertisement and by denying your customers the ability to advertise on your behalf, you might be denying yourself some new customers.

[n.livejournal.com]

In my past experience with commissions, or rather just letting someone add on to my own, personal works, I've never had this happen.

I got the opposite reaction, in which the individual who either commissioned me or colored in an old piece with permission and credit, ended up getting all the praise and I didn't get anything out of it beyond simply being the original artist.

Which is what has influenced me in taking this stance against any art being reposted.

[fiawol.livejournal.com]

Ditto the above comments. People who commission art are generally not artists themselves, so the only artwork they CAN post is what they have commissioned. Set rules that the artwork should be displayed with a watermark/signature of your website/gallery (which is acceptable to most commissioners), but if you decide that they cannot ever show off their commission you drew for them, you MUST have that spelled out before you take any money from them (and even then you may be on shaky legal ground if the commission is of a character created by the commissioner). Posting commissions is all we collectors can do, let us get our one thrill out of getting artwork from artists we like by showing it off to others.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Technically you own the art and have the right to say who makes copies (even digital copies) and where they go, unless you sold the rights (which I don't believe you did)
That being said, if you're adamant you don't want people reposting your art, tell them this up front. I would even recommend against putting it in a TOS and assuming people read it - tell everyone specifically and make sure they agree. I say this because people may be commissioning art mostly because they like putting it in their gallery (as the person above) and most artists don't mind it.
I'd urge you to reconsider your stance as it can be good publicity and I'm really not sure what bad things can come of it, but it's up to you.

As to the second part of your question, I'm confused? If you don't repost people's art how does the commissioner even know about these other images?
Again technically no you can't give them to the commissioner if they're by other artists and you don't have the copyright; commissioner is free to ask the artists if it's okay though.

[n.livejournal.com]

The commissioner was made aware of the other pieces of art that were included in the character's sale.
This does not mean I directly linked them to these images. Hell, all of the images in question are files saved onto my computer.

I don't have hundreds among thousands of pieces for them to leaf through, but an amount large enough for them that they should be made aware of as the character would belong to them now and not me.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I say this despite the fact that I am a huge advocate for artists rights. While it is true that the commissioner does not inherently have the right to repost, letting them know ahead of time is incredibly important.

Yes, you are in a position to make that sort of request. In the future I suggest you make it clear from the get go so people know. As someone who commissions as much as they do commissions, I know I personally would be bummed if I couldn't show off what someone did for me!

[germanchoclates.livejournal.com]

He should have been informed prior (granted nobody should ever assume they can do something.)

I had to amend my TOS for FA specifically because there is so much reposting of art going on there. I sort of just gave up. saying to credit and put my icon in the desc. Even then I don't like it. I hate the thought of my work being reposted anywhere (I don't care if they can't draw, I couldn't once, either.) So I understand your sentiment.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

Nothing would make me run away faster from an artist than being told I wasn't allowed to repost the work I bought, regardless of copyright. It's really not a great stance to have. And if you told me AFTER I initiated payment, I would cancel it/ask for a refund.

[aggro-badger.livejournal.com]

I mean, aside from the fact that I don't really understand reposting art in general (i don't see how it is more effective than just linking to the original, but it doesn't bother me), I mean, you know that once you post it on FA, it is probably making its way to a ton of private computers, potentially being emailed or file transfered over IM and probably being posted without permission to various image boards... So really the commissioner who gave you money and who's character it is of is the only person, because of their compliance with FA AUP, who isn't getting to repost the art. :x
So I guess without trying to sound like a jerk, why do you not want to let them repost it?

[n.livejournal.com]

Please read my responses made to Eveshka and four_calamities to get the answer to your questions.

[torikonero.livejournal.com]

It seems from your replies to other people that you are making a TOS. Once you finish it, direct people to it before they commission you. State that by paying you, they agree to your TOS. Issues like this do not happen with a visible, competent TOS. Good luck!

[ocelotish]

What I would say is this, from what I've it's the standard on fa to allow minimal reposting by the commissioner (e.g. their fa gallery) and this is generally accepted by both artist and commissioner, so it is reasonable to expect that on their part. If you had a TOS that included "No reposting of commissions" then you'd be in the right, but without it, the standard is what is bought (with very few exceptions).

Now where to go from here? I'm not sure what you're worried about in terms of reposting. If you're worried about art theft, ask that a watermarked version be posted. If you're worried about distribution, you can say that it's only allowed on fa. If you want people to view/comment on the original, I'd ask them to only post a lower res preview with instructions to get to the full image. However, if you do that, I would offer them a partial refund or freebie as that's not what they were expecting/the standard, or just a full refund, particularly if you can't offer them any of the above.

[jadinerhine.livejournal.com]

This. Most people on DA do the reposting art thing this very way.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Oh, only moderators can post tags, by the by, so we can keep all the tags relevant.

[conigliomannaro.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is new. In the corners of the art world that I regularly attend, it is unthinkable to post someone else's art, even if commissioned, to one's gallery; I'm not siding with anyone, but I would have never imagined that so many people considered it normal. When I commission a picture I write a journal about it, or use it as a thumbnail for a story of mine, but I have always considered posting to the gallery like an act of claiming ownership, credit or non credit; many people, indeed, don't bother reading ANs, and would assume it's yours.
I gotta thank you guys, if the attitude displayed in this post works even for written commissions, I need to make some TOS as well. (I realize it sounds a little passive aggressive, but I'm not sure how to reword this; just know that I'm most definitely not, I'm really grateful for the 'discovery' and surprised, that's all)

As for the OP, maybe he/she/ze is like me, and didn't consider it such an obvious request and forgot to warn their customer at first? Honestly, if it's such a widely accepted practice, I would offer a refund (3 bucks won't kill you) and consider it a lesson learned.

[loganberrybunny.livejournal.com]

What I do is to include the author's name in the actual title of the piece, in brackets. For example: "The Warren at Night [by Examplefur]". That makes it very clear that it wasn't me who drew it. As for reposting being considered the norm, I suspect a lot of that is simply because FA has a "by you/for you" policy, which specifically allows the posting of art you commissioned. FA has so much influence when it comes to furry art that its terms often get considered the norm.

[whereisourcrown.livejournal.com]

+1 to what conigliomannaro said, I would never post anything I didn't personally create to any of my art account.

If people want to share their commissions, wouldn't linking to the original be easier (and result in more attention to the artist who actually did the work)? The "it gets you free publicity" argument only works if people are actually paying attention to who drew the picture.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

Depends where you are. A lot of people here run their business off of FA where they do have a 'by you for you' clause. A lot of commissioners do have their own commission galleries and do a pretty good job of letting people know where the art came from. I've personally got a lot of publicity by letting people repost my work. :]

[holydust.livejournal.com]

You're well within your rights to have a personal preference that commissioners not repost your work -- but as others have said, you can only expect people to adhere to that rule after you have a system in place that makes damn sure they have read AND agreed to your TOS stating that rule.

That said, I wouldn't recommend such a stance. The vast majority of my clients would never commission me again if they weren't allowed to share the final piece in their own galleries. And that's money I'm not making -- for what? Page views I might not have gotten anyway? The fact that I won't see the other comments unless I stalk the duplicate post every time I complete a piece? It isn't worth it for me, personally.

When I wrap up a piece, the email I send includes this: "As always, you are fully welcome to post this piece in your FA gallery, with mention of my name and an :iconholydust: link. I encourage you to post in your FA gallery if you can -- it's free publicity for me, but of course, you are in no way required to do so."

There have been a few who have said they wouldn't post it, and that's fine by me, too. But I have no personal reason to deny them the privilege, as I feel I lose nothing by allowing it.

The idea that a client might post one of my pieces and one of his friends might say "wow, you're a good artist" in response doesn't fill me with dread. Why should it? The client will inevitably say "oh, this isn't mine, it was done by Holydust", will link me, and there's another page hit.

If you feel you do have something to lose, it's totally your right to have such a policy. I just wouldn't recommend it.