Complete refund??? ADVICE NEEDED!!

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

FINAL EDIT: RESOLVED. As promised, a picture of the wearer in suit, with no fitting issues. Thank you to everyone who offered legitimate advice! I had received a message from a fursuiter attending FurFright that she is in fact there and in suit, so I emailed the buyer one last time to see if they could verify (They previously had not responded to my other emails). Suddenly an hour later I receive this reply- "The problem was not in the belly, in fact, she has room to spare in the belly.  It was more along the top.  Per your advice she wore it out for an hour or two last night when we got to furfright.  Unfortunately, since we didnt get the suit until 14 hours before we were leaving for furfright, she didnt have time to even consider adding new head feathers and such." Well, apparently they're not happy that I paid the overnight shipping because their last payment was late, but as you can see the suit fits her now, and they plan to keep it. So this also shows I was wrong in assuming it was the weight issue- apparently it was only height (and she's a single inch taller then myself) and after wearing it it fits. By the way, the same duct tape dummy used for this suit was the same I used for my perfectly fitted ram suit you can see in the Fursuits live journal. Again thank you to everyone who helped me with the topic at hand. You really helped out both parties!! Hello everyone! You all remember me from posting asking about shipping a costume prior to payment, and I took your a dive and waited. Thank you so much, because they quickly found a way to pay in time!!

Now I have a problem, and I'm really not sure what to do about this-

They finished paying, and desperately wanted the suit, so I paid OUT OF POCKET to overnight it to them. The following day I don't even get a thank you. This morning, I get this email-

"we have a problem. The measurements you gave were not accurate.  Irime is 5' 8" and she is compressed getting into the suit to the point that the zipper won't stay up.  The shape of the head, while able to go around her 22" head puts her eyeballs halfway between the eyes and beak.   There is no way someone 6 ft. 190lbs could fit in it.  I'm an inch shorter than irime and 181lbs and there's no way I can fit.   No way the head would fit 26 inches.  I tried my 24" head and couldn't put it on.

In essence the suit is pretty much useless.  Irime is in love with the suit but is in tears because it won't fit.

I would like to discuss shipping the suit back to you for refund less your shipping costs, as it is not as described in the auction.

We appreciate all your patience in getting her here.  If we had been able to try her on beforehand we would have been able to avoid the problem.

Thank you for your understanding."

First of all, I posted the exact measurements of my body on the auction. I wish I still had the link to the auction after it closed. So that's impossible It coiled have been due to "improper measurements"

I also have a picture of my 5' 11" brother in it, who weighs 175, and it fits him just fine. (I can supply pictures if needed)

The suit always had the issue with the zipper, the original artist put a really thick, cheap plastic coat zipper on it, and I needed to put a safety pin up top to keep it closed, no problem.

The vision was a standing problem I had with the suit, and it was a public issue, though you can see through it as long as you pull the nose down, so I'm not sure what they're talking about.

I was not previously notified that the buyer was 190lbs, else I would have offered for one of my family members to try it on for them to make sure it'd fit around.

My problem is now- what do I do? I informed them of my measurements, the transaction was completed, and I shipped the item. The money then went to college tuition, and now they want me to refund them 1,200$, which I can not do in any way quickly.

I sent them an email letting them know how to adjust the zipper and the vision, but I'm afraid they're going to try and force a full refund. What should I do?

EDIT: Here is proof a man 5' 11" and 175 can fit in the suit, for those who have asked

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb353/LaurenBites/chrisinsuitprofile.jpg

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb353/LaurenBites/chrisinsuitfrontview.jpg

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb353/LaurenBites/Chrisinsuitback.jpg

Also, I am 5' 7" and 135, as stated to the customer. I was even heavier at the time I commissioned this suit. I also have the picture of the duct tape dummy used by Growly, if anyone wants pictures of that, or myself to confirm my height.

Thank you to everyone who gave an unbiased opinion, you were all very helpful! I will offer to edit the white of her belly for her, and if that doesn't work out, I will just help the customer step by step through auctioning it off again. Cheers!

EDIT!!! I have witnesses and pictures to come, proving she can fit in the suit, and is wearing it at fur fright. So I would like to thank the people who actually took the time to help me think of a proper alternative for them. To everyone else, you'll have your proof soon enough.

Comments

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

"They finished paying, and desperately wanted the suit, so I paid OUT OF POCKET to overnight it to them."


..why
I wish I had a facepalm icon but this one will do.
If you do give them a refund, I sure as hell hope you don't pay the return shipping fee.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

::shrugs:: trying to be kind to the buyer. Either way it's not the shipping I have an issue with, it's the full refund. Any advice on that much?

[dreamerdragoon.livejournal.com]

If you provided clear and accurate measurements on the auction, honestly? I'd say it was their error. If you delivered exactly what you offered for sale you are not obligated to do any more.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

I posted my measurements, and a lose estimate. Of what it would fit up to. I had a 5' 11" model, 175 fit in it, with room still left over on his sides, so I put "up to 190 lbs" and "no taller then 6 feet tall"

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

It was an auction for a suit already made right? And you put the measurements of the suit down?

If your measurements were accurate and you INCLUDED all the information about the quirks of the zipper and vision then they honestly cannot expect a refund. It's simply not your problem if they have made an error.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Yes it was already made, and I'm not sure if they openly knew about the vision or zipper, but there were several reviews, comments, and posts made about those issues for public view, even on the characters original FA page

[sephystabbity.livejournal.com]

I think it's their problem. If it was a premade suit, and you included all the mneasurement, I can't see how it's your problem now that it doesn't fit.

Most likely, it seems to be that its not that their suit doesn't fit, but they seem to be experiencing buyer's remorse.

I honestly wouldn't give them a refund. Most I would give them is 50%.

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

50%?

And have them send half the suit back? I dunno, I can't see how it's possible to give a refund for premade stuff unless the auction was misleading in some way - and even so, you'd have to get the suit back.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

Measurements are tricky bastards. I'm 5'11" 210, but pear shaped and female. If a man of 5'11" 210 tried to wear my suits, he'd probably find the legs too baggy and the shoulders too narrow, possible too narrow to even get on. Height and weight are not sufficient information to know if something will fit

This is not intended as having a go at you OR at the buyer, just a general note to anyone selling fursuits: MULTIPLE measurements (waist, hips, bust, inside leg, shoulders, arm length, height and weight, possible more if relevant) or at the very least a good description of the body type it was built for are essential.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

I completely understand. I thought I had my rear plenty covered by posting the measurements I used for the suit to be made for me. I guess I'll have to get even more specific next time x.x

[fuzibuni.livejournal.com]

I could see fixing the issues... But I think a refund may be a little silly, particularly because that is a risk they take with a premade item.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'll still do my best in offering to make the belly larger, I just wish they would have given me their own personal measurements. I would have personally made sure it would have fit before even selling it.

[tizzrah.livejournal.com]

I would not refund them if it were me. It is the buyer's responsibility, as already mentioned, to ask questions if the measurements weren't as specific as they need to be. A simple e-mail on the buyer's part could have avoided this entire situation.

I would tell them that it is not on you to offer a refund, due to the fact that you gave enough information in the auction for them to make an educated decision on whether or not to make the purchase. I would also tell them that it is not a total loss, as they should be able to contact the person who originally made the suit and see if they would be willing to make some alterations to fit. Or, if that person no longer does the suits, find a comparable-quality studio to alter it.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

The original suit maker has up right refused to edit the suit, but I personally have offered to make a larger stomach for her. Thank you so much, this helped me a lot!

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

... I hate to assume people are bad guys, and there's no proof of it, but after the previous shennanigans I'm almost wondering if they just want to wear the suit at FF and then return it.
It'd be nice if you kept the add though, to show proof you mentioned the zipper problem and the vision problem.

As I see it, you're within your rights to say the sale is final and just try to give advice on the zipper issue. If you want to go the extra mile you could offer to get it back and put it up for auction again, and give them the auction money (up to $1200, if you somehow get more I think you should keep it) minus shipping costs.
/warn them this will probably be less than they paid for it/

Or give them advice on how to auction it themselves.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much!! I was wondering the exact dame thing, as I've set them 3 emails today of different ways I van help, and all have gone unanswered. Apparently FF is this weekend. I'll keep an eye out for pictures of it, lots of people post on FA of suiters at cons. I'm hoping to see her.

I hope it doesn't come down to the auction idea, but that's a very valid idea, and will be sure to utilize it if they give me any further problems.

Right now I see it as a finished transaction, but have offered to expand the stomach marking for her. I've gone above and beyond for these people, and I'm really just trying to keep a good reputation for myself on this... Lesson thoroughly learned

[scardykat85.livejournal.com]

Do not refund them.

Every time you buy a pre-made suit you're taking a risk it won't fit. I know suits that have been adjusted heavily to fit someone, including increasing the length of limbs, area around the neck, even head adjustments. It's a risk the buyer took in buying it, and one you should not have to pay for. You documented the size in the auction, it's the way it is.

Offering to do some adjustments is the right thing to do, and if you they don't take you up on it...I fail to see how they can justify their purchase knowing it might not fit properly.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

I definitely plan to take this advice. I have offered to extend the belly, and if they don't want that, then there's truly not much else I can really do for them. Thank you for your greT input!!

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I personally think they should just resell the suit, themselves. That way they can get their money back but they aren't forcing more work onto you when you didn't do anything wrong. It's not like a store where you can just return a pair of pants and be done with it.

[seaweed-fma.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. If you had the information us, and you did, then it is up to them to decide if that would fit. If they thought it was going to be close they shouldn't have done it.
They did, so the burden is on them. They should resell it to get the money back.

[silverback2001.livejournal.com]

I also think you shouldn't refund them. You specifically tested the suit on yourself and another person it sounds like, who was taller than you. You tried to give a good estimate of who the suit would and would not fit. As it's a used item, it should basically be considered an "as is" sale, and not refunded. They can sell it if they want their money back.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. Had they also informed of me of their size, I would have been more then happy to locate other models as well..

[kikai-saigono.livejournal.com]

I feel bad that they really wanted that suit and it doesn't fit them, but like some were saying earlier, while a size 9 might fit me, it may not fit someone of the same height and weight on another person. I would say they should see about reselling the suit.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Me too!! I feel so bad... I know exactly what they're going through. Problem is, it's not a suit I made so I can't just alter it as needed. I don't have the fur (I asked the original artist for the remaining fur of what I paid for, but they declined and sent me a few 4 inch squares) but I do have white fur of my own that I can use to make their belly bigger. I offered it to them in hopes she can still use it. I'll have them resell it.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I can only refer to this: http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/487331.html#cutid1

in regard to the sizing issues... I can't say how accurate it is of course, but it's still pertinant to the issue.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

To quote:

"So more months pass and I thought this is finally over. I was browsing Furbuy the other day and saw the suit up for auction on Furbuy once more.
I noticed the measurements she was listing were way off, and she's claiming the suit cost $400 more than it originally cost, presumably to artificially raise its value.
That auction can be found here: http://www.furbuy.com/auctions/1024604.html
I know Furbuy deletes auctions after so long, so I've also screencapped it for when it goes poof.

Now keep in mind this customer was a few inches taller than me, about 5'4", no larger than 5'6". She said the suit was fairly tight in the vertical direction when she first got it, so it really looks strange that in the auction she states the tallest person that can wear it is six feet tall. That's a huge difference. Now it may be she's done her own alterations to the costume, but if that's true then she needs to take new photos- she's still using the photos I took during my original photoshoot. I am five feet even, so if the costume looks pretty good on me, not too much bagginess, then you can imagine how it would be for a six foot tall person to try and wrestle it on.
It also seems like a bit much for a 190 lb individual to wear it, but I'm not as good at imagining different body weights in costumes as I am heights, so I'm not sure. I just know that as a 125 lb individual, the costume looked pretty good on me. Again, it is entirely possible she made her own alterations to the costume, but if so, she needed to have said so and taken new photos.

...
Then I saw her FA journals about the suit and saw she originally claimed the suit would fit someone "No taller then 5' 8"". That's a difference of four inches... that might not seem like a lot, but when you're dealing with a form-fitting costume, that is kind of a lot. I'm not convinced she's representing the suit accurately, it seems like she's desperate to sell it."

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

Maybe ask them to take pictures of how it doesn't fit. This will give you a good idea if in fact they are the size they say they are. She wouldn't be the first girl in history to not know/forget how much she really weights or how wide her hips are. With a few extra bits of fur I'm quite positive they could modify it themselves.

Check the return policies of where you sold it and if they might be inclined to be spiteful and issue a chargeback.

I don't think you are required to refund them, agreeing with everyone else here. However, I think both parties share a little of the blame for it not fitting. They should have asked and/or you should have given measurements. I think a good middle ground is perhaps help finding someone local to them that can help modify the suit to fit or help them re-sell it themselves. Maybe there was a second highest bidder?

Either way, yea. No refunds.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Hi there! I definitely asked them to send me pictures to prove she couldn't fit. I also do plan on making much more thorough measurements in later sales. They also never sent me their personal measurements so I could check just to make sure.

Either way, thank you so much for the advice! I really appreciate it!

[jurann.livejournal.com]

Why can't they just re-sell the suit themselves? It's simple enough to create a new auction on any one of the auction sites and then make a post on fursuit_auctions or similar to advertise it. They should have the link to the original auction and get the description to re-use if they really need to. Buying a premade suit is always a risk, and one a buyer should be willing to invest in should the suit not fit them.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'll help them re-auction their suit. I just wish they would have sent me measurements of themselves so I could have made sure it'd fit! :(

[eenyuwolf.livejournal.com]

I'd say do not refund them! Fursuits are, a lot of times, custom made to fit one specific person, so any time you are buying into a premade suit you should assume that some alterations are going to come along with it.

I would apologize for the inconvenience, but at this point I think it's up to the buyer to either have the suit altered to their own needs, or resell it themselves. As long as you were very clear about the issues I see no reason why you should refund them.

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. I even offered to alter the stomach for free. They never notified me of their measurements, else I would have certainly checked to make sure she would have fit before hand. I will do my best to help them re-list the auction

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see screen shots and proof, especially if they provide pictures and pictures of you wearing it.

As of right now (with what's been said), I'd say while it is a risk in buying, it seems like the initial information was incorrect on your part. I would not be surprised if they went after you for a refund, especially with the history on the suit, and I wouldn't blame them. :/

Though, I'd just advise them to re-sell the suit themselves and not have to worry about the hassle of trying to get a refund from you just because they'd get better results quicker.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

You/your brother*

[fenris-lorsrai.livejournal.com]

Since this was apparently going to worn at FurFright, you may want to suggest they actually TAKE the suit with them, even if it doesn't fit. There's at least 2 fursuit makers that will have dealers tables and they may be able to look suit over and determine if alterations can be made to the fit without compromising the design or structural integrity of the suit. and MIGHT even be able to make the alteration at the con if they have the right materials with them.

Or at very worst, can take accurate measurements of the suit should they determine that they should just resell it. then they know they have accurate measurements!

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

That's a very good idea! Though I am not sure I could let them know in time, as they informed me they were leaving today to FF, which is why I had to pay for their overnight shipping.

I offered to do a free new stomach piece in hopes it'll help them since I feel so horrible, but if push comes to shove I'll help them relist. Thank you vey much for your advice, that was a great idea! I feel bad for not beign able to tell them this in time. :(

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

This is confusing, why would you put that it fit "up to" 190 lbs and 6 ft if you hadn't actually verified this, because 5'11 and 175 pounds is pretty different from 190 lbs and 6 ft. Did the auction mention what exact height and weight the suit was built for? Was the zipper problem mentioned in your auction? And the vision problem?

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Posted my measurements, with a low-ball estimate on what it could fit. Also put that if they had any questions or concerns, to message me. I had a few other interested buyers message, asking if it'd fit certain measurements, and I had found a few models to try it on that were their measurements. They didn't tell me their size or anything, or else I would have verified that it would have fit.

Also the vision is fine with he head in proper position, and the zipper just doesn't stay closed at the very top. I had mentioned this before, but not in the auction.

[ariakitty.livejournal.com]

I really wish I knew what all information you had listed when you posted your auction. Did it say specifically that the suit could fit a 5'11, 175 pound man? What sort of measurements did you provide? Just what weight + height the suit would fit? Or did you provide inches, girth, etc as well? (I may have overlooked this in your post, if I did I am so sorry!)

I think if you just mentioned height + weight (6ft and 190 pounds) it probably confused the buyer. I mean, you can have two people of the same height and weight but they won't fit into the same clothes as each other depending on body composition. (Fat vs fit, male vs female, etc.)

This is kinda messy and I am sorry you have to deal with this. I would personally try to help the buyer resell the suit. It seems like there was a lack of vital communication here. :/

[laurenashleyart.livejournal.com]

Hi there! I posted my height, my weight, the circumference of my head, and the type of shoes designed to fit. I also posted a low-ball estimate of what it could fit.

Also, yes, I did slet the buyer know abotu my brother wearing it, and even sent them the pictures with him inside it, the same ones I posted on the original post.

I said it could fit nothing taller then 6", and the buyer said she was 5' 8" which is only one inch taller then me. The bodysuit also had lots of room left in the sides when my 175 lb brother put it on, so it was easy to estimate a bit more would fit.

I also posted in my auction that if anyone had any questions or concerns, to email me, and several interested buyers did, with their measurements, and I went to find a model that fits the specifications and had them try it on just to make sure it'd fit. They didn't say anything about her measurements, or weight until she finally got the costume.

I definitely know to post more thorough measurements from here out, though I was really hoping they would have asked if they weren't sure. I will do my best to help them re-sell the suit

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

Honestly, considering they accounted for shipping costs in the requested refund (and were very polite) I would probably have them ship it back to me on their dime, and then subtract only my shipping + auction fees. Then sell it again. You're out the time, they're out a small chunk of money but both parties are still better off than they could be, and your reputation is more important than money in the long run.

I think this is just a misunderstanding. Measurements could have been posted in the auction, questions could have been asked by the buyer. The solution offered in the post is decent enough (coaching through the sale is certainly an acceptable way to handle it) but I personally would go the extra mile to relieve any hard feelings about it not being as described. There is enough gray area here that I don't think that the buyer is without reason to ask. As others have said, written measurements are worth their weight in gold.

[karthegrax.livejournal.com]

I hate to be the bad guy - but if you knew the head and zipper had issues you really should have mentioned them to the customer. The fact that you didn't makes me wonder whether or not we can believe the rest of your story. It is not fair to expect the customer to go searching for reviews that you have written about the suit. Googling "Cynthia Sophia fursuit review" does not bring up your suit review. And I can't see the zipper issue mentioned anywhere in the review anyway.

Unless you lied about the costume size (in which case the customer should be able to prove, and should get a full refund), I do not think they should get a full refund, but it was not fair of you to hide information and overprice the costume to make it sound like a better deal than it was. I'm not totally convinced about your sizings, at one point you were discussing with growly to lengthen the legs so it would fit you better, yet you say it can fit someone 6"? Your story may be legit, I just find it difficult to believe with contradicting information.

[linksage.livejournal.com]

There's also this to take into consideration: http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/487331.html#cutid1

I'm with you. I can't help feeling a little suspicious about the OP after reading all of that and seeing how quickly her attitude changes. :-/ Particularly the bit where I guess she lied about the original cost...?

[linksage.livejournal.com]

While I would have originally said it wasn't your problem, looking into further evidence has me doubting that you had remotely correct information listed on that auction.

In the auction comments you claim that your brother is 6'1" (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/LinkSage/heightissues.png), yet here you keep saying he's 5'11". According to Growly you also lied about the original price of the suit. This all just seems suspicious to me.

[karthegrax.livejournal.com]

I noticed that too, but had already posted my comment at that point.

Whilst she has posted pictures of a male in the suit, we have no way of determining how tall he actually is. All we have to go on is OPs word - and given the discrepancies, I'm not convinced he's that tall at all.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Yea.. I hate to be negative nancy, but something isn't adding up right here.. and this should end up being a beware.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

I am most definitely throwing my hat in with this suggestion. :/

[kit drago (from livejournal.com)]

Greetings to everyone,

As much as I hate to jump in here, I feel compelled to make a statement on this. This is a VERY long post as I am trying to address everything in one go. I would want to mention how disappointed I am in finding this post. It's not a problem that she was asking for advice, but I do feel that she should have anonymized the original post. As such, I am here as the source of funding for this purchase and on behalf of the buyer to address what I feel are some... missing elements. Since we are in the line of posting partial emails, I am willing to offer up a zip file containing the entire email thread... if it REALLLY becomes necessary.

First and foremost - YES, the suit has been worn at Furfright PER SASHADOBIES ADVICE.

"This fur stretches a LOT and I do not find a refund necessary until you've had her try to keep it on for an hour and stretching. I had to do this as a small excersize whenever I wore her to keep the seams from breaking (I always felt like they would snap if I bent over at all!!) but take it from me it DOES STRETCH WITH WARMTH."

Obviously as has been mentioned, we were leaving for furfright, so the only place we would even be able to attempt to "warm it up" would be at the con.

Auction info - She did post the information as has been displayed, in fact the auction itself is still visible here - http://www.furbuy.com/auctions/1024604.html. Her opening bid of $900 failed in the auction, but my kitten wanted to have a bird suit and was in love with it. So I contacted SashaDobie (aka laurenashleyart) directly to discuss buying the suit. She stated she wanted to recoup at least half her cost and asked us for $1200. I understood this sentiment and agreed, but needed to do it in payments ($200 initially, $500, $200 and finally $300) with the intention of having it in time for furfright. The measurements are very general, and yes, it says to ask for questions, but between the measurements in the description and the follow on comments about her "6 foot 1 inch brother", we felt that it should be an easy fit. There seemed to be no reason to ask for "Bust size, leg length, etc" We have learned our lesson from this.

Which brings me to the next item - Overnight shipping. We have been telling her for weeks that we were trying to get it in time for Furfright, and in fact that we needed enough time because we wanted to add minor modifications to make it somewhat different from the original design. We were desperate on that to the point that even though i pretty much knew what the answer would be, I asked her if she would consider shipping it about a week or so before I knew I would have the last portion of the cost sent to her. We had asked from the very beginning about using paypal for payments, but she was adamant that she could not use paypal, so we were sending money orders. In the last email about possibly getting her early, she suddenly came up with a paypal address to send to (about the time she made a new FA account to take commissions). We were extremely grateful to her as this would expedite the final payment to her so that it would get shipped out. As she mentioned, in between the time we asked about shipment prior to the final payment and that point, we were lucky enough to find an additional source of funding to send. so We sent in the final payments and asked for immediate shipment so we could get her in time. The paypal payment was made with instant payment using a CREDIT CARD so that there would be no waiting lag. However, instead of shipping immediately she sat on it for several days while waiting for the payment to transfer from paypal to her bank.

[kit drago (from livejournal.com)]

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