Community Poll

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

It's that time again!

Art theft and tracing posts have always been allowed in artists_beware up until now. This poll is so everyone can decide if they want it to stay that way, or if we should change that aspect of AB.

Also understand that even if the community picks 'no', it is up to our discretion if we feel a particular incident is extreme enough and would substantially benefit from being put to the attention of the AB membership.

[Poll #1801634]

Comments

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I think there's relatively few art theft posts in A_B, mostly about huge sites or people who trace for pay, seems to regulate itself alright.

[temrin.livejournal.com]

Reasons why i'd post them:
-If they were not crediting or claiming as their own.
-tracing for commissions, trades, etc.

If people are tracing with permission, duh thats okay. They were given permission. And for own personal improvement. But naturally, those shouldn't see the light of day :/ Because its practice and you most likely dont have permission.

I don't think i've seen any particular post in A_B yet that hasn't been a good post. It makes you aware. Doesn't necessarily stop everyone from purchasing from the artist. But its good to be aware of it regardless.

My 2 cents anyways :3

[taasla.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. While one of the last tracing posts wasn't a dead give away, I probably will never purchase from that artist as too much seems too fishy.

[skittlewolf.livejournal.com]

I'd rather keep the tracing posts because it allows people to see that an artist is partaking in a sketchy activity whether or not they are taking commissions. What if they are thinking of taking commissions or starting in the near future? I'd rather know who to avoid or who to take with caution/grain of salt.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

I kinda believe the beware aspect regarding tracing is "Hey this person who's taking commissions has a history of using other's drawings. You might be paying for a drawing someone else made. Commission at your own risk." A lot of people use their gallery as a portfolio anyway to get business so it comes across as false advertising to me if they have a high number of traced images.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

Pmuch if they're taking commissions for traced work without siting, it belongs here to warn off future buyers.

However just single cases of tracing for the sake of? Should probably be saved for Art_Theft and Trouble Tickets on the site.

[goosestep-lion.livejournal.com]

I am of the opinion that unless the artist is taking commissions and is a tracer then it belongs on Art_Theft. Since this page is really for consumers/commissioners/Artists offering commissions, then the other topics belong over in A_T.

[badkittyamy.livejournal.com]

problem is art-theft posts don't always get replies and there's no archival system like there is here to look up past offenders.

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

My opinion isn't quite stated above: I think they should be posted if the person is tracing from another artist's work without permission and taking commissions. If they are tracing or heavy referencing other material, or not selling their traces, then I think it belongs somewhere else - there's too much debate and uncertainty in those issues.

And before anyone jumps on me, that's just my opinion.

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

This is how I feel. I put no in the poll but only because none of the others reflected my real response--there are certainly cases for bewares, when someone directly steals the work from another and/or traces copywritten work (including photos) and makes minimal changes.

I feel the evidence needs to be very solid and not a matter of "letting the community decide." Why? because psychologically humans are programmed to detect patterns and similarities--even when they aren't there. Coincidences too easily become foolhard "proof" and real business reputations are at stake. If this can't be met then I feel it better left to Art_theft.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I think the tracing posts are fairly important. I hope they stay.

[teahound.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Art_theft has a far lower userbase, sadly.

[raeraesama.livejournal.com]

As a customer, I'd like to know what artists are selling traces, so I know not to buy from them.

[monogato.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I am agreeing that if they are tracing/aren't being genuine about the sources they used, then it is worth posting to artists beware. That is something that person's customers may be concerned about - just like a poor track record in customer service or fulfilling orders. I think they are worth keeping around, as long as discretion is used in approving posts (i.e. poor construction of evidence should be asked to try harder and come back later) - though it doesn't seem to have been much of a problem yet.

It's a real issue, even if it seems to come with some unwanted drama.

[foxxieangel.livejournal.com]

I would like to see them stay. Artist beware has a lot more members than art_theft does so many people would miss out on important tracing issues if this community got rid of them.

[megumi-kitten.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of keeping it, as long as they're selling thier work.

[genkigami.livejournal.com]

I say if they're making money off traces, post it. If it's some kid paintbucketing in porn, that's an art_theft thing.

[ocelotish]

I didn't vote, but I think they should only be posted if the tracing/art theft is illegal. Tracing a great deal from someone else's work is obviously a serious offense, and infringement of copyright, but tracing some from a stock photo or your own photo is legal. People may not like it, but the artists doing this are within the law, so I think that'd better handled in the tracing community. There may be a middle ground with the frankensteining, but that would be up to the mods I guess.

TL; DR - Tracing itself isn't qualification or disqualification from posting, but it should only be brought up in the context of theft/copyright infringement.

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

True. Whilst I know that most people in this particular community (myself included!) think that tracing -anything- is a very skeevy way to do business, it is in fact legal so long as you own the rights to the material being traced.

[enter-data-here.livejournal.com]

I hit the wrong button. I think it should stay in art_theft unless it is related to an artist tracing for commissions and trades.

I'm seeing a lot of questionable tracing posts lately too and it's irritating that people can post questionable/shaky proof. I'd rather A_B stay a place to warn other artists of bad artists/commissioners.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I believe you can change your vote anytime you want. :)

[aurastarlucario.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...

I think that if the person is making money off of it, it should be posted if it's relevent to the topic. If they do what I do and don't post anything they've traced, what's wrong with it?

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I think tracing/theft posts should be allowed here if the artist is selling stolen work, or tracing/sightcopying without telling customers - because those posts come down to an A_B issue of bad business practices/misleading customers.

If personal art has been traced from legal sources, it's no-harm-no-foul. If someone's tracing personal art from illegal sources or if some random kid in Bosnia or Egypt or whereever has thrown a bunch of pictures on a website without permission, those are issues for Art_Theft.

My two cents.

[idess.livejournal.com]

I also think tracing should be allowed here, but decided with 'only if being used for commissions'. I can see that tracing belongs in art_theft, but once an artist uses it in commissions I believe it IS a beware; beware of commissioning this artist, as you might end up with a piece that's traced.

[fallimar.livejournal.com]

Definitely keep them! Really - a large volume of thefts doesn't make them not a problem :P
I mean, if they're just starting out and don't know any better and not making any dough or trades off it, then it's pretty much common sense not to post them.

I love the fact that so many tracers have been caught lately, always makes me feel just a tiny bit better about my own business practises!

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

Pretty much everything posted here makes me feel better about my business practices. XD

[gargoylekitty.livejournal.com]

I don't think they take up that many posts and even if the person is not currently taking commissions, they could be in the future so I think it's worth mention(besides, as fallimar said, it's not like anyone's been posting every kid who traces something).

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Man, IDK, if it's illegal it's illegal. Taking money/work for it is more liability but really blatant tracing itself that violates copyright shouldn't be done either.

I'm about done commenting on "is it really a trace" posts though. I tend to think not unless it's a) very obvious or b) admitted

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

I think if people are selling traced work, or selling stolen work, that definitely should go up here. This isn't just "artists beware", there are people who use this as "buyer beware" as well.

BUUUUT.....

I am really tired of people using this as a way to try to smear someone when there is no real evidence of tracing. One or two lines matching up isn't something I care about, and recently a lot of the people posting these kinds of completes sound more like "I don't like so and so, so I spent a few hours on Google image search looking for horses that resemble their artwork". Let's not mistake referencing for tracing, there is a big big difference. There was a chick a while back who was making a living off things like traced animal artwork from photos (and definitely traced, not referenced) and that's the sort of thing I'd like to be aware of.

But this kind of thing is a poster's judgment call, so I don't think the group should "outlaw" tracing posts.

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

Ha! I meant complaints, not completes. Where did my brain go???

[spartanwerewolf.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see them stay. The last* (I think) tracing post aside, they've been legit, at least from what I can remember. There are a lot of people who trace with impunity because "everyone else does it", and sometimes being posted here is enough to shake them out of that mindset. Plus, it's important for commissioners to know that there's a possibility of their commission being traced.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of redirecting people to one post on a topic. Most people don't go back into archives to see it, for one, and for another, commenting after two or three days on LJ is kind of... against the culture? Many people aren't going to jump into an old post to bring something up, because a lot of people aren't going to see it.

*My bad, it wasn't the last one. It was the really obvious "smear" post I'm talking about. Can't recall OP's name atm.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, tracing/reffing discussion was becoming a real problem. Every single post was turning into a fight between a small group of people and dragging it out with back and forth. There's a point where it stops being discussion and is just circular arguing, and it's kind of rude to the OP to end up with like 100 comments of people bickering with each other because they can't just agree to disagree.

We made the decision because it was getting out of hand. People are still discussing in the actual tracing discussion post, and that'll continue to happen if people say something instead of not saying something under the assumption no one'll see it.

There just comes a point where there's nothing productive left to be said, and it reached that point. We didn't want people to be afraid to make posts because they might get that kind of thing happening in it.

[familliaraver.livejournal.com]

I think that it should go to Art Theft first and if it isn't resolved or continues is should be posted here.

[enter-data-here.livejournal.com]

That's a fairly decent idea!

[enter-data-here.livejournal.com]

I have a question: If the majority is "yes, leave it as is" but wins only by a handful of votes, does that mean that it wins altogether? Or do you guys plan to take into consideration that there are just as many people that want to only post tracing entries if they're commission related?

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

We'll definitely take it into consideration and will be discussing it before we decide.