Artist's Beware: Shiuk (Commissioner's Beware?)

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

The short version:
I commissioned Shiuk last November, he showed a sketch a week or two later, and now a year later has yet to show any significant progress, and 9 times out of 10 will flat out not respond to any communication, whether FA notes, Emails, or Twitter DMs. He has delayed and said "in a week" many times, and now when I ask for a refund and he's still, of course, silent.

The emails: (Rather than bore you all with the details of the commission, etc, I just stitched a bunch of the emails together, with relevant dates, starting from when he received payment)

1 - November 17, 2010, Payment Received by Shiuk: http://i.imgur.com/on2YM.png
After this email, we went back and forth for about 2-3 weeks in emails on some minor sketches / getting everything worked out. 

2- Feb 18th, 2011, Asking for some kind of update and the next day I get a response saying he's been busy / "art block": http://i.imgur.com/JUzEQ.png

3- March 15th, 2011, Still wondering what's going on. "You're coming up shortly.": http://i.imgur.com/EbhrK.png

4- June 6th, 2011, Asking again for an update, "I'll send one Tuesday, been a busy weekend.": http://i.imgur.com/21k7a.png

5- July 26th, 2011, An update emailed to me. Still... very rough over half a year later. Responded that day with a minor tweak to be made. Email + NSFW Sketch: http://i.imgur.com/r3Lou.png

6 - October 27, 2011, Another update... Barely anything changed, asked for a few minor changes, IE slightly bigger dong (NSFW). http://i.imgur.com/PHxwE.png

7 - November 10, 2011, Line art update. Confirmed and shouldn't need anymore edits (NSFW). http://i.imgur.com/Umr48.png

8 - December 3, 2011, Asked for a refund of the $50 for the year+ overdue commission. There was some more talking back and forth prior to this, but Twitter evidently doesn't save that many DMs nowadays. It boiled down to "I'll get to it in a week" many times. He also said this outside of the emails / FA notes in the past, many, many times.  http://i.imgur.com/odUod.png 

So now I'm waiting for a refund or him to get up and finish it. At this point, I'd rather the refund.

There, that clear-cut enough as to what he did? Anything else anyone wants to see? Paypal statements? 

~Blue Hyena Out.

Edit: Refunded as of 12/9/11. Case resolved.

Comments

[bumblybutt.livejournal.com]

I've heard of similar things happening in the past with people regarding commissioning Shiuk. So I'm not really surprised.

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

Twitter's gotten all glitchy with DMs and whatnot. But you may still have the email notifications of the messages he sent you.

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

I've never gotten email notifications from receiving Twitter DMs. Must be an option I never checked. That'd drive me nuts seeing as I get so many.

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

echoing the first 2 comments, I don't think his other bewares here were ever resolved so you are going to have a hard time trying to get him to talk to you...

I'd recommend linking him this entry as a shout or note on FA, perhaps he might listen then?

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've been pretty passive-aggressive with him =3

He'll get the message or every time he posts a submission on FA he'll see a comment from me linking to this and asking for a refund or my year+ due art.

Also, hi Capp! Been awhile <3 How've you been?

[genkigami.livejournal.com]

Yyyeah, judging by the posts about him, he seems to have a habit of churning out excuses or just flat-out not communicating. Good luck.

[temrin.livejournal.com]

hmm -nods- Not the first time I've seen posts here about him. I have friend whom are still waiting on art from him. And on the other hand, some people get their art from him, fully completed within the week of ordering. He's got a very sketchy rep with keeping up with his work :/

Its really not to much effort to keep in touch with the client. Honestly, keeping in touch with the client shows responsibility and a care for your client. Anytime I've had issues with a commission, if the artist updates me without me having to ask, or promptly when i do, i honestly don't care how long it takes. (unless there is a deadline.)

I certainly hope this gets resolved. D:

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

That was my main problem with him I think (and forgot to add it to the main post); Keeping me in the loop.

So many times did I ask him for a rough estimate of when he'll get around to it. A few months. A month. A week. A year. ANYTHING, and he promised he'd keep me in the loop. Never did.

Anyway, think I may do what someone else did to get their money out of him: Threaten to report his Paypal account for non-delivery of goods/services.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I've heard of this issue, both from online sales and from in-person-commission sales at conventions. I think they're starting to effect his sales at cons, since he was quite lonely at a table just beside mine at Rainfurrest this year. (which he seems to be at every year, by the way) Hope word continues to get around that he's just a really bad person to commission.

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

One thing to remember, which most White Knighters seem to forget:

We don't dislike the person. Shiuk could be a great guy. He's just bad with money and business, and if he can't figure out how to be better at that, he shouldn't be taking commissions.

Simple, right?

[purpule.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't, nor should you expect a full refund.
He actually did half the work, so he doesn't owe you a full one - but the fact that he's fobbed you off for a year and doesn't really seem to have any sort of urgency about himself is ridiculous and it's not the first time I've heard of this artist for the same thing. It seems a very common occurance that commissioners are to almost expect long waiting times and lack of communication from those who are popular* because this is the sort of attitude you're up against.

*Am I saying that's right? Am I saying that all popular artists = this sort of issue? No. I'm just saying it seems to be a trend that people often don't come to A_B for ages after being ripped off because they're afraid of the consequences of outing a popular artists/think it's just to be expected for the price of someone more well known.

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

Eh, I don't care about any justification he has about not giving me a free refund, but last I checked in most lines of work if you don't finish the job, you don't get paid for it.

Gave him more than enough time to make a decision about whether he wants to finish it or refund it.

[purpule.livejournal.com]

Wait - hold up, just noticed something.

Can you give us some evidence confirming what it was you paid for?
I've looked up Shiuk's prices and 50 dollars doesn't even get you an inked ONE character commission these days, so I'm surprised that he's doing a 2 character coloured piece for 50 dollars.

Do you have a screenshot of that agreement?

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I'd also say that asking for a full refund isn't quite fair to Shiuk as he did do work on the piece, even if it has been a year. I know from your comments that you disagree, but as an artist, I wouldn't give a full refund if I'd gotten that far on work for a customer.

I wish you luck on a resolution you're happy with!

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Okay I am rescinding what I've said above. I'd say this beware is for both parties. OP is being way way way out of line, and cannot provide adequate proof of what he paid for =|. This is no bueno.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

This. Some of his early comments sent up red flags for me, but when he started pulling out the insults...

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Tagged as resolved since you got a refund.

[shiuk.livejournal.com]

Sorry to bother, but would you have the ability to mark another issue as resolved? ( http://artists-beware.livejournal.com/505135.html )

It was resolved a few months back and guess the poster forgot about it (can provide proof if needed).

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

Agreeing w/ Neo here about both parties. Working with Kraven before he has forgotten things owed to him, so that's nothing new. (He forgot a commission I owed him and I had to remind him when it was given) But the attitude is a little off putting to say the least..

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

You were a bit of a special case, also the reverse (I forgot you owed me something, not vice versa.)

You did art for me for things I bought you, so I couldn't go back and check Paypal to see if you owed me something. Since then though I've kept track of people who owe my art on my Profile since I know I'm a forgetful individual.

I also asked Shiuk many times for updates that rarely came.

[silverfoxfire.livejournal.com]

Um Hi guys...and girls...everybody. I made an account here just to post for people to beware of some artists I have had a continuing problem with, I was actually referred here long ago by FA admin, but didn't think it was such a big deal at the time.

First, it hurts really bad to pay for something and not get it. I see Kraven got finally a sketch, so I can at least agree that the work was done partially, even if long after what normally would be an acceptable time period, at least to me. :/

I agree that Kraven got upset at some posters here too, but I also see that there was some prodding to get the upset.

While true, I don't see any proof that it was a color commission to begin with, it is also unreasonable to then assume it was not. We do not know.

Actually for many people keeping as many posts as Kraven did is good. Honestly, to prove what it was, really prove it, and how long it was supposed to take and all the extra, you would have to have had a contract fully written out and addressing every known possibility, and then signed and notarized by both parties.

It isn't gonna happen, especially not over the internet, and plus both parties will want some anonymity, otherwise we wouldn't worry about using other names or not posting everything to public boards.

I agree, I know, that not all the proof you would like is here. What I did see proof of was this...
1. There was confirmed payment for a commission
2. There was confirmation from Shuik, Who I really like the art of BTW, that it was taking a long time.
3. There were multiple contacts many months apart, meaning that the commission was running very long.
There was no proof here, that Shuik was taking other commissions from people during the time in which Kravens pic was supposed to be worked on, however I know that happens from time to time, and I feel it's a bad practice.

As for both parties being bad to work with... really guys? I don't really know Kraven, not personally anyway, but I think given the time periods we are talking about here, the progression of upset was reasonable. :/

Not if Shuik posted counter tweets/comments he had proof of here showing Kraven was harrassing him and demanding more than what he paid for and such, I would go..."now there is a good defense and Kraven was wrong." However it seems likely that Shuik knows about this post because I can imagine that Kraven linked him to it. He did not counter.!Which does not mean he was trying to cheat anyone!

I think that what happened was maybe some real artists block, which does happen! Sometimes I think an artist takes a commission and before getting to it, sorta...loses their muse for the piece. And I think some hold off on telling commissioners because the spark can come back. And after they realize they just have no interest in the pic at all they finally relent and accept that.

At this point it is time for settling, money makes friends and enemies :/

So I'm gonna try, TRY to make a suggestion on a proper course of action based on different situations. Sorry if it's bad, but I'll do my best

1. Full refund: If no work has been done, and there is no appearant set time for it to begin, and a lengthy time has passed, (I would say 30 days, because many pics are paid for with paypal and you have but 45 to claim against the deal), Then the buyer should contact the seller through all means available and let them know they need to see some action within 5 days, otherwise you will assume that the commission has been rejected.

Give them 5 days to show you a good start on the work, or refund your money of their own will.
Remember: you shouldn't have hard feelings, if it doesn't work out ok, sucks but at least you got your money back, and the artist doesn't lose face either.

Also, at that time, when asking for action or refund, you should definately send along a list of expectations to your artist.
Such as:

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the defense and well thought out post (and I really really appreciate you seeing it from my side. Like you said, I gave him lots of time between pestering him for progress. I hate being bugging and pestering repeatedly).

As for the refund, it was already taken care of and he refunded me (as you probably saw in my edit).

This whole post kinda turned into the merits of what is right and wrong between commissioners and artists in the comments it seems. :c

[silverfoxfire.livejournal.com]

I would like to see a sketch in 2 days, and have some alterations the next and finish the work by the 5th day.
If that's what you expect you HAVE to tell the artist that, if they cannot meet the expectations, they have the right to say, I just can't do it, sorry, take your money back!

They are people too and they may not be able to work that fast or in that order, or might have things happening in their lives.

2: Partial refund: Ok, you have to face it, art is a LOT, LLLOOOTTT of hard work, especially when you care about what your doing! Whether it takes an hour to crank out a sketch, or 5 minutes, work is work. There are points at which it is not reasonable to expect a full refund.

If you have a sketch completed, whether going to be a lineart or full color, there is work there! BUT! at the same time, just because an artist has a sketch drawn doesn't mean they are locked into that commission either.

Here is what I mean: If you are familiar with an artist named Raudri I believe on FA and Inkbunny, they sketch amorphous faces and quick body lines. You might know it's supposed to be you and not be able to tell yet during a sketch! Now Raudri does wonderful finished work. However there are several points at the beginning in which if they wanted, they could make that sketch into another character very quickly and without great effort.
Therefore in those situations I believe a larger amount of refund might be in order, because the artist can then convert your pic into their pic, and still upload.

However it is wrong to talk set dollar amounts here, each situation is 100% different!

Raudri is cool, that was just an example.

And lastly: There comes to be a point at which a commissioner deserves nothing back

3: No Refund: Look guys, if you have tons and tons of changes, and they are all personal wants not agreed upon in advance, you may be pretty out of line to keep nagging on them! Every artist is also different, and not all are gonna be able to get the 100% depth that another might. they might make you look thinner, or taller, or fatter, but you should have an idea of how they draw before you commission!

If they have been harassed, they also should give you no refund! But harassment isn't so how is the pic coming? But if the commissioner goes, hey I want it done now! If not yu owe me the pic and my money! or, you owe me another pic! Or maybe you just start berating them, harrassement is real and serious!

[silverfoxfire.livejournal.com]

And finally, just remember, you should always set up a reasonable understanding during prepayment, and go with your descisions all the way, don't change horses mid stream so to speak. And for artists, please, I know it's difficult to juggle life and work and play and art and friends, but if you have a problem please stay in contact.

Also, timing is everything, over a month with no work done is not a reasonable time period. Unless agreed upon first! And if you think it will take longer then that tell the person. But 3 months is not reasonable for any drawn art to take, honestly, after this time period, if the commissioner isn't shouting and noting you constantly, they must at least have some empathy for what you may or may not be going through.

All in all people have feelings, so both sides need to take that into account. :/

I'm not for or against Kraven or Shuik here, I'm glad they worked it out.

I do however hope people here realize that as far as proof, the only real way to have absolute proof of something, is to go into it thinking your gonna be cheated. :/ I hope we don't all do that. I really do.
You have to take things with a grain of salt, weigh the evidence and make your own judgement. To post hateful things is a waste of everyones time. Try and post ways to better make your point, or help prove something, not demand they show proof they don't have.

I would say, keep screengrabs of the bartering convo's for all commissions forever. and as many there after as you can.

I hope when I can post my problems here, that I don't get blasted as hateful, because in fact I don't feel I am, but I am very angry with those I feel wronged me.

If this place is to judge the OP's evidence alone, then it wont help me, I want to spread the word about those who do me wrong, in hopes that I will be made whole again and others will know to steer clear of the people who will mistreat their trust.

If you read all that thanks.

*hugs to all*

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

just wanted to say that i've done a badge for Kraven and he was great to work with!

glad this has been resolved.

[kravenlupei.livejournal.com]

What an awesome badge it was :3 Still one of my favorite to break out at cons.

[jackrow.livejournal.com]

A list of excuse had been established. Lame ones. If I'd base these excuse upon myself, I'd say he would probably be playing some sort of those recent games like Skyrim nowadays(I don't play that though, however considering that age Crysis 2 were somewhat popular by that time, that could be possible too). We are all a living being, and also artists needs their hang outs to relax from their jobs.

The problem is with most popular artists like him for instance is they don't know their limits to take. e.g.: They don't know how much duties can they bite at once than they can chew. No offense!(constructive criticism) Even fell into that pit myself and then realized it should not be done again.

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

I would also like to post a second comment here saying Kraven has commissioned me a couple times before aswell and was always a pleasure to work with. and I'd also like to echo silverfoxfire's post.
I also personally think the people 'blacklisting' here are taking all of this a bit too seriously. I feel like Kraven was just very upset having to deal with not getting art he paid fully for and then having to answer to a lot of you with some of these comments just made him act like he did. I think you should all give him another chance, because I think he's great to work with and hey, look, sometimes we all get a little huffy about stuff and say things, but that shouldn't be where it all ends.

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

Did Kraven delete Kayla's and Celarania's comments?

[lovegonnadrown.livejournal.com]

wow, name-calling, deleting comments, harrassment... OP has definitely earned a spot on my blacklist. What disgusting behavior.