A question of morals.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Edit: I re-read the artist's LJ where I was supposed to get this icon. It was called "Free icon day." People had the option of donating for the cause, and if it reached a certain mile marker, the icons would be of higher quality.

Edit 2: Actually, here:
http://grey-jackal.livejournal.com/99567.html

This is the LJ where the icons were promised, as well as the artist. I wasn't very informative with my post, and I want people to read this and get a better understanding.

However as far as I (and a few others) can see, she doesn't owe me anything. Since it was supposed to be 'free icon day', and I donated simply to help the mile marker to get a better icon.
You won't see my comment on there because I made the comment on my now purged LJ account, AuroraBorealia.

Edit 3:
Poked artist, said don't bother, artist did icons anyway. Very grateful.


Over one year ago now, I donated to an artist (who's name i'll keep retracted for now) who had fallen on hard times, and promised every donator would receive an icon. Then depending on the amount she received, the icons would be more complicated (shading, TWO icons, etc). I've poked and prodded this artist, and i've been fed excuses, and that she's 'working on it'. Yet, her gallery shows no proof of this, and a friend of mine who also donated her has not received anything.

So here is where my question lies:
Do I have ANY right to be angry, or make a beware over an icon that I was supposed to get for a donation of $5 I made, or should I just consider it a lost cause because i'm a fool with my money?
Thanks.

Comments

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I think you have the right to be upset about not getting something you were told you would get. But I personally wouldn't pursue it. I don't feel it would be worth my time and their stress. I prefer to donate and consider it a gift rather than a cheap commission.

But I don't think you would be necessarily WRONG to pursue it. Just I wouldn't, personally. You should probably be asking yourself if it's worth it to you.

[oneoffour111.livejournal.com]

Same. This exactly.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Re-reading the artist's LJ entry, while it was technically a donation, it was called "Free icon day". If people donated, and it got to a specific amount, the artist promised the icons would be higher quality. So.. I gave her money technically, for an icon, despite it being called 'free icon day'.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_patches_/]

I think you do have a right to be angry... especially since you and the others who donated were -promised- something.
The amount you paid doesn't matter... People have posted bewares for commissions of such prices. It's really the fact that you haven't gotten what was promised.
If this artist didn't want to do work for donations, then they should have never said they'd do icons to begin with.

[dakotabailey.livejournal.com]

I'm in a similar boat (probably with a different artist) but, still. I was wondering if I should talk to the artist about it being that I know that my icons are done. They just haven't been scanned in yet :/

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

You could always express excitement and high desire to see the finished product. It might help them get it in gear if they realize people are really anticipating seeing their art!

[kadaria.livejournal.com]

I think for a question of morals in comes down to the difference between a donation and a business transaction.

When I make a donation (time, money, bodily tissues) I don't expect anything in return. The exception to this is marrow donation, in which my medical insurance and the tissue banking center offer to help me with the cost and after care for donation (I don't expect anything from my receiver).
There fore, if a furry artist, or anyone is asking for a donation, there is no obligation to me afterwards. Many organizations do offer donor incentives (red cross, hsus) but I don't expect them and I rarely take them. Some donations to these bigger organizations are tax deductible because they qualify as a government approved charity.

If an artist is specifically offering something in return for money though and advertising it as such then I would see that as a business transaction, even if they state that the money is going towards something people would normally donate for such as unexpected medical bills. When the need for blood is high, the red cross and blood banks do not advertise that they are giving away free t shirts, they advertise that we need to replenish the supply and that if you donate you might get a t shirt while supplies last.

So in your case, I think it really depends on how you felt when you gave this person money. Was it a donation or did you feel it was more like a business transaction? I can't answer this for you but I wanted to mention how I felt about donations since it seems to be something that comes up with furries a lot. I apologize in advance if this seems really flawed to others, but this is what has worked for me for years and I haven't been disappointed since. If anything I get really excited when I do get something cool like movie tickets or a pound of coffee (blood supply is always critical in my area).

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[immortalpanda.livejournal.com]

This!

[mrst4nkr.livejournal.com]

+1

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

I re-read the artist's LJ where I was supposed to get this icon. It was called "Free icon day." People had the option of donating for the cause, and if it reached a certain mile marker, the icons would be of higher quality.
I gave her money because I wanted an icon from her, and I have an icon/avatar addiction.

[theidolhands.livejournal.com]

Can you file a claim through paypal or your credit card company? I'd absolutely pursue that venue; this is unfair dispensation -- you paid and received no goods.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

It's been over a year, there's no way I can.

Nuts.

[theidolhands.livejournal.com]

next time, pursue quicker. ;)

I give you bonus points for being such a nice person, unfortunately it bit you. I'm just curious, what sort of icon is one willing to pay $5 for? Is it one with original art or what?

I ask because I'm curious if it is something the average generous icon maker might offer to make up for this sucky situation. :)

Re: Nuts.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Original art, I suppose. I don't mind shelling out a decent price for some icons/avatars (way more then $5, trust me). I enjoy them.
I appreciate the thought if someone wants to make up for the situation (since this is the second time i've had a simple icon 'transaction' fall through) but i'll be content as taking it as a lesson learned.

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

Personally when I donate to someone I consider it a donation, regardless of what they promise because I know sometimes things happen and fall by the wayside. If I'm going to donate, I'd prefer it to be a gesture of kindness on my part and not a promise of something on their part.

That goes for when people hold deals where if you advertise for them, they'll draw you a picture as well. I'd rather just help them out without expecting anything in return.

I'm also a worst-case scenario type person, so I'd rather have an unexpected surprise than get my hopes up for something and be disappointed!

HOWEVER, like others have said, you were promised art so you essentially commissioned this person. You are owed something, whether it's the icon or the $5 back.
I agree with kayla_la. Decide whether or not the $5 is worth your time and their stress.

kadaria said it very well in her last paragraph above, too. :) I agree with her as well!

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

Wellp, here's the thing... if it was agreed that it was a donation out of your own kindness and an icon was going to be more like a courtesy art version of a 'Thank You' card, then there is NO business contract. Then again, you could also argue that there was a contract when you exchanged icon info... but I'd say the former scenario seems most likely by the way you continue to say 'donation' instead of payment.

I understand the frustration, especially if you donated after she had promised icons, so therefore you donated, expecting it to be worth your while to do so. But, after all, it is a donation, and the way things go with those is there's no binding contract nor any incentive for the artist to do it, really. If she'd intended to do icons she shouldn't have promised it to entice people (if that's how it happened), but there you are.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting question because it depends on where one draws the line between a donation and a commission.

By virtue of being called a 'donation' there is the connotation of it being in the spirit of a gift to help someone out and it doesn't really hold the same weight of obligation that a commission does. I have donated before and while there usually is the line of they'll try to do something for those who help, it's never something I've tried to hold them to.

However, if these items were a concrete guarantee, then that makes it more like a commission imo. You aren't necessarily in the wrong to pursue it, but in future my suggestion would be to refrain from donating to people in exchange for things and just stick to making concrete business transactions instead.

As for pursuing getting your item, ask for WIPs since she's apparently working on it or try to set a deadline of some sort.

[dustmeat.livejournal.com]

The artist promised to deliver and she did not. That is bad business, even if you donated. No progress sketch? You had to poke and prod? It does not matter if only $5 was lost, she should have made you happy.

[theidolhands.livejournal.com]

agreed.

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

I'm going to bring up another point. While I'm in the camp of 'eh, I let donations go the way of the world' there is something to be aware of and be careful with. You mentioned that the artist has fallen on hard times- was this a one off instance? Is it reoccuring? That's the problem of donations.

I had a 'friend' that constantly and almost continuously asked for donations, usually changing up what was needed (vet visit, mom care, brother/sister/nephew's birthday/X-mas/get well gift, etc, etc). She spaced these things out over the course of the year(s) to where I didn't catch on at first. In once instance she managed to fund her own wedding purely on 'donations' and a raffle system that was a money racket if I've ever seen one. To this day, I think maybe a handful of people (if that) who donated got the promised art.

So in cases like this, where someone continually and constantly abuses other people's good will- then yes, if you decide to go in for it, treat it like a contract. Screenshot the shit out of things. Get things in writing and make them give you a deadline. Personally? I wouldn't touch that person with a 10 foot pole because I don't like my good will being taken advantage of nor made to be a fool when something 'shiny' is waved in front of my face.

As to your specific situation, I'd be a bit more zen and say 'eh, good karma is good karma' and let it go.

[deejthistle.livejournal.com]

Well said.

"I wouldn't touch that person with a 10 foot pole because I don't like my good will being taken advantage of nor made to be a fool when something 'shiny' is waved in front of my face."

After having years of good luck, something similar happened to me. I commissioned someone under a special deal, so they could pay for an important bill, and the artist later (and very casually) disclosed to a mutual acquaintance that the money was never spent on it. They've made headway on the art since then (plus they edited the original journal so you can only find the cause alluded to in the comments), which means I haven't had a completely solid reason to make a stink...

BUT I don't like being lured into spending money that way. It'd be like going to a steak fry for the fire department and finding out someone took the money and spent it on beer instead.

To the OP: I would definitely stick to either donating just to help (with no expectations) or just outright commission the person in question. That way there's no question if the artist flakes out on you.

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

I know how you feel. The person I was alluding to earlier has done a ton of that kind of crap and it pisses me off. I would want to do an Artist Beware on them except so much of what I have is so old that there's no 'proof' left, most of it is hearsay from other people and just instinct from the experience of being in their circle for years and years. My only consolation is that the last few times they attempted to get donations/"commissions" (since they're also the type to go YEARS without producing anything) yielded almost nothing. They basically have moved onto other avenues for suckers I would expect.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I don't necessarily call it a donation if they're promising something in return. If you were expecting an icon out of it, then honestly I'd pursue that.

However if you gave under the guise of "Donation" then perhaps it's best to just let it go. Generally when I see people offering something 'quick' for donations I tend to be skeptical that they'd even finish them. It's no longer a donation if they're doing items in return - it becomes a commission.

[bailzzararco.livejournal.com]

I did this, too. I donated to a suffering artist, and was promised an icon...never got it, never got even a thank you. Won't be doing that again.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

What other people said--if you gave them money as a gift, then just let it go. If you gave it to them as payment for art, then sure, go ahead and pursue it. It's really up to you and what your intent was.

I've donated and never gotten the promised art, but in that instance I was giving them the money as a gift. I wasn't expecting anything in return, even though it was promised, so I didn't pursue it. Though at least a 'thank you' would have been nice. *shrug* I don't think anyone who donated ever got that art. Yeah, it stinks that people don't follow through with things like this, buuuuut unless they start doing this repeatedly, there's not much to do.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

Did the journal specifically say the donators would receive an icon? If its called free icon day, then one would think its she does as many as possible for free. If accepting donations, then it would be just that, not a commission. Offering higher quality icons if a mile marker is reached is just an incentive to donate, but unless the original journal specifically states (or she told you you would get one) donators are for sure getting an icon, then no you may not get an icon and all you did was literally donate. You could prod and ask her about it, but it isn't something she'd be obligated to do for you.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

"4. If you cannot donate, that's okay! You still get an icon! (it wouldn't be free icon day otherwise? now would it?!)"

That's where the problem lay. Said "leave a reference of your character or pet, what facial expression you'd like and if you donated! :3" So I basically gave her money on the premise of getting icon, but I totally understand where you're coming from.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Also no, the journal did not say anywhere donators were guaranteed an icon.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

"I WILL reply to your post with your icon".

"I will", not "I might" or "I'll try to". That's a promise, and that was for everyone, not just donators.

Also "two icons for donators" later in the post. She may not use the word promise or guarantee, but she simply says she will do it with no qualifiers, that is a commitment to do it.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

I guess I got so fed up I didn't read the post as much as I should.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

Woops just replied about that on the other comment haha. If anything I still think its okay to ask her about it, but echoing others here with the personally after a try or two I'd let it go. ^^'

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

After reading the well thought out replies from here, that's basically what i'm going to do. I appreciate everyone coming forward and aiding me. <3

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Actually, here:
http://grey-jackal.livejournal.com/99567.html

This is the LJ where the icons were promised, as well as the artist. I wasn't very informative with my post, and I want people to read this and get a better understanding.

However as far as I (and a few others) can see, she doesn't owe me anything. Since it was supposed to be 'free icon day', and I donated simply to help the mile marker to get a better icon.
You won't see my comment on there because I made the comment on my now purged LJ account, AuroraBorealia.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

I can see where it's confusing especially because of that 'can't donate still get an icon' line, and her rules are very vague. :c
There's no real indication of donation priority or otherwise so I'd just cross my fingers and hope she ends up doing it in the end.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Basically what I did for a year before coming here asking for help. x_x

[starcharmer.livejournal.com]

Kind of bums me out because she's always struck me as a professional and responsible artist. I think she probably bit off way more than she could chew [she got well over 100 responses from the looks of it]. She probably should have put a limit on it or at least a clause that said "donators are guaranteed an icon, I will do the free ones at my leisure."

That's what I did when I did sketches for donations a while back. I fully intended to do all the free ones as well as the ones for donations, but I ended up having so many and never had time to finish them all.
But I kept the list of everyones' references for the free sketches and I definitely intend to finish them at some point! I just haven't had the time due to life/bills/commissions.

At any rate, maybe bring it up with her one more time and suggest that she just start with the ones for people who donated? Couldn't hurt. Judging from the comments in that entry, she didn't do many of the icons at all. Like I said, disappointing. She made over $150 from donations, her time for those icons was paid for.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Well she just posted a journal saying she's sorry for the quote 'excuses', and taking awhile. I'm not even gonna bother pursuing it any more, it's not worth it. If I get it? Cool. If not? Cool.

[ocelotish]

I'd say look again at the terminology. Is anything promised for donations, even as a group? What I mean, is if the artist said something like "If I get $xxx, I'll do y." In that case, that would be a contract to me. It's a contract made with all the donators.

If they ever refer to it as a "tip" I'd say that's another sign it's a contract.

However, I'd generally say that if they say "donation" consider it a gift, by the same token I'd tell artists to consider donations a contract.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

I added the journal at the top of the entry, you can take a look and see.

[ocelotish]

Yeah, I'd say that the artist would run into problem with "Donators will get two icons! Two Icons for DONATORS! :3" To me that says that the donors have collectively paid for one icon each, and then the other would just be the free one that they promised everyone.

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

Yea I see that now. She made a commitment on owing me at least ONE because I gave her money for it.
As of right now, i'm not sure what to think.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda curious, what were the donations for?

[lackoflollies.livejournal.com]

To reach a mile marker for 'free icon day'. That's it. I misread somehow she was having a hard time.