Advice on commissions and references?

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

EDIT: I just want to say thank you everyone for your input! I've gained some new ideas and insight on referencing and will be using new methods to do so. I apologize if I am unable to reply to every comment on here, but I really appreciate the discussion and the ideas that have been presented.

Hi, this has probably been asked before, but I really wanted to ask people who have had experience in the commission field. I've been really on the fence about this and want some confirmation.

Recently I had a commissioner who gave me complete artistic freedom over their commission. Their character made me think of a dynamic pose, so I went on a pose referencing site and referenced it for the commission- absolutely no tracing or copying was involved. It was a photograph of a live model used from a site called pixelovely I believe, used to practice figure drawing. It was just referenced with the naked eye, and the pictures- my sketch, and the referenced pose- do not match up at all. I'm not good with dynamic poses, so that's why I used a reference. I wanted to get everything right and give the commissioner a good quality commission as advertised.

When the sketch stage of the commission was finished, I linked them both the sketch AND the referenced photograph, so they could be made aware of what I did, and they seemed to be perfectly okay with that and were very happy with how the commission was turning out. However if the commissioner were to have been uneasy with the use of a reference I would have redrawn the sketch free of charge because I wasn't sure.

Is referencing (NOT tracing, but actual referencing) for the sake of getting something right an okay thing to do with commissions? I just do not know, because you're being paid for the work, and I usually get the idea that most people would want you to come up with your own poses entirely. I've seen a lot of folks say that this is not a Good Thing to do, but a lot of times tracing was involved in an attempt to pass it off as referencing. This might seem like a no-brainer, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. What are your thoughts?

(If I word anything badly, please tell me and I'll do my best to clarify! English is not my first language.)

Comments

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Approved, but I want to add a mod note that . We already have a post for that. Everyone, please keep your comments on the topic at hand. Anyone who ignores this and tries to turn it into a tracing debate will have their posts screened and will be given a warning.

[ellonwye.livejournal.com]

Of course it's alright. Where has this idea come from that art absolutely totally must come from the artist's mind only? Referencing is a staple for a lot of artists, it's only a problem when the reference is so close it could be argued to be a trace.

[fenrirs-child.livejournal.com]

This.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I have actually been told that some artists refuse to use references for paid work because it feels like cheating! I disagree, personally, but I would rather have some confirmation and discussion from people with more experience in commission work than I, hence why I posted this to the community. :)

Thanks for your input!

[eenyuwolf.livejournal.com]

Personally I do the same sometimes. There is a section on DeviantART called Resources and Stock Images; and if I need inspiration or help with anatomy on a pose I will usually search through the images since I figure it is safe to assume that they are all posted there with the intent to assist other artists.

Normally when I do this I make a note in y description of the final image that I did use references to help me with the image. I figure that as long as you give credit it is acceptable. And of coarse not tracing it line for line and adding your own personal flare to it.

Now if a commissioner had issue with me referencing another image then I'm not quite sure what I would do. Either redraw or refund them I guess; I'm interested to see what others may have to say on the matter.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

I told the commissioner right away that I used a reference and linked them to the photograph- just in case. I would never want to keep any of my customers in the dark.

I've always used stock images and figure drawing sites for pose ideas and to study anatomy, but when I heard that some commission artists stay away from referencing like I did, it baffled me.

When I do upload the commission I plan on crediting, as that's the right thing to do. I always leave credit where it's due.

I wouldn't know what to do if a commissioner had an issue with me referencing, either- ESPECIALLY since I need more practice with complicated poses. I would also probably refund. It sounds like if a commissioner had an issue with that, then they're a little more work than it's worth.

[serious-mccoy.livejournal.com]

I'd be boggled by anyone who wouldn't want me to reference. Like, they'd really want to risk me screwing up an arm, rather than just quickly eyeballing an arm in the same pose and getting it drawn right? Just to preserve some bizarre and faulty sense of 'integrity'? I just... do not get why anyone would have a problem with it, unless they think "real" art pops out of the ether.

Personally, I don't like referencing an entire pose- I usually just ref bits and pieces that I'm struggling with from various sources- but that's mostly to avoid people freaking out on me about it or trying to "call me out," and not because I actually see anything terribly wrong with it. If you're referencing the whole body, plus clothing and such, so at a glance it looks strikingly similar to the source material, it's probably a good idea to make it clear what you referenced from- not because it's 'dishonest,' but to avoid the drama.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Agreed!

And all I really referenced was the pose, tweaking it slightly so it wasn't a cookie-cutter copy. It was mostly to give a bit of flare to the commission because the character just seemed more fitting to have a pose as such. I came up with the clothing, expression, and everything else regarding the character that was in my artistic freedom on my own.

I'm not really afraid of being "called out" for referencing photographs. What is there to call out someone for? The site that I referenced from is specifically made to find references for figure studies, etc. and that's exactly what I used it for.
Thanks for your input though! I appreciate it.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I don't do commissions, but the few times I've done art I've always used references. Sometimes I'll go surfing for a pose reference because I can't figure out how a hand or a foot should go or how foreshortening looks; other times it's to make sure colours or details are correct. Heavens, we have reference sheets, don't we? I did a picture that was set in a parody of Mos Eisley; you bet I looked at stills from the Star Wars movies so I'd have the right colours and styles for buildings. If I were to do a fantasy picture, I'd look at stills from Lord of the Rings, and covers of fantasy books, and medieval art. I did another pic which involved a character wearing an old-style air force uniform, so I definitely looked up pictures of the uniforms and rank insignia.

ETA: I should add, in that pic I did also use some graphics as part of the picture - buttons, cap badges, a flag in the background - and I was very careful to credit the source for each of those.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you make a wonderful point. Especially mentioning reference sheets... Oh goodness if we didn't have those I can't imagine how difficult some commissions would be. I'm a visual learner, so looking at a character's body type, markings, etc. is a big help.

If I needed to draw a certain type of place or architecture I'd definitely go to a reference for that. And foreshortening has always been difficult for me, so I'd definitely use references for that as well.

I wish I could offer more to my reply to you, but I really appreciate your input and it definitely added more clarity to my thoughts. Thanks!

[pariahsdream.livejournal.com]

What happens when you are commissioned to draw something very specific? Like a gun or a sword or a specific type of jewelry? I don't know about anyone else but I most certainly could not draw a gun from memory.

The debate about reference images is mostly (inmo)a case of misinformation and misunderstanding. Being honest about your ref use and not tracing is about all you can do. And if your commissioner has some fault with it, then offer a) redraw or taking out the offending reference point or b) tell them that you don't think you'll be able to complete the commission satisfactorily and refund.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Good point. I didn't think about having an instance to draw a weapon or accessory. :1

Thanks for the input!

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

I would try to come up with my own pose first, and then use references to check it, like this: http://shattered-earth.deviantart.com/art/The-BASICS-Using-References-255875213

If that's what you were doing, then you're fine.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Just to clarify what you're saying and get a little further input, this is the pose I referenced; http://www.pixelovely.com/gesture/gesturepics/figure-1-1303878221.jpg
And this is the commissioned picture: http://i.imgur.com/MvC7q.png

I broke it down to learn the angles and how to draw it and such, and then freehanded it on my own. The result was similar, but a lot of the aspects of the pose are different, too. I see that the upper arm is positioned differently, the legs are lower and one is bent further back, and the upper body was bent slightly off-kilter than compared to the photo. I tried to make it SOMEWHAT different.

Would that be considered a "shouldn't do" aspect of referencing according to that tutorial, and should I not do that anymore? I'm not going to say I can't come up with poses on my own, as I easily could and have done before. But I wanted a sort of basis for a dynamic pose and just went from there. I just needed some ideas and figured a "figure drawing" tool would help me out.

[marus-puppy.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, you have an idea in your mind of the pose you want but - if you're anything like me - you have difficulty translating that directly onto paper from your brain. So you find a picture of the pose you're thinking of and use it to get the anatomy/perspective/whatever right and what's wrong with that? Site your source so that credit goes to where it's due and have a nice day.

I only expect that the artist DREW what I'm commissioning unless I expressly ask/commission otherwise (as in a photomanip.)

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm a visual person, so I like being able to look at something and try to put it on paper/canvas in my own way, and as artists a lot of professionals recommend to "draw from life" or "use references." I figured it was probably not a bad thing so long as none of it was traced, but I got paranoid and I chose to get some input from others who know more than I do. I don't want to be pinned for copying/ripping off in a negative way, when that wasn't my intention.

[edenpilgrim.livejournal.com]

Reference images really shouldn't be er... Copied for their poses. They are there for you to see how the body moves in certain sitautions. Even if you do decide to use the same pose it might be a good idea to at to at least rotate your figure. Same pose, different angle. There is a good tutorial on how to use reference images on deviant art but unfortunately I am on a mobile device. Linking is cu
rrently impossible.

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Someone else linked that tutorial and I saved it. :) It gave me good insight.
I'll make an effort to utilize references the way you mentioned as much as possible from now on. Thanks!

[weirdmisty.livejournal.com]

Referencing is perfectly fine, to my eyes. As long as your art is by your own hand (eg. not traced) then it shouldn't really matter if you needed a reference to inspire a pose or double-check your anatomy.

[peludrax.livejournal.com]

This has really been coming up a lot lately so I guess I'll throw my two cents into the pool. Where referencing becomes an issue is not in actually using references, but when an artist uses references so heavily their work is pretty much line for line the reference with hardly any of their own touches.

Looking above at how you used your reference is perfect, you got an idea for the pose but clearly changed it, and blended it with your own style to create something new.

The grey line is when people pretty much re-draw everything line for line and then slap a pair of cat ears and snout on it. A.) Because all you're really learning is to trace and B.) You aren't being really fair to the commissioner because rather than creating original work ( Unless it's clearly stated otherwise/or something like portraiture where your goal is to re-make a photo, XD) you're just re-creating a photo.

It's my understanding from all the books, including anatomy books, that I've read, that the ultimate goal of referencing is to eventually be able to understand proportions enough that you won't need to use reference except to check your work from time to time when things just seem off or ill proportioned.

And wow, sorry, didn't mean to write a lecture in this post *fail*

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, your post was worth the read!

And I'm glad that you think so, the reason I used that reference was because I am seriously bad at dynamic poses, and needed to understand how that one worked. :x Now that I've used it though I know a little more about the movement of the body in such a manner and will probably be using a ref less heavily in the future, and will be using a new method to make use of references now that I know about it.

I also used the photograph as a helping guide with proportions... Because my god I cannot tell you how many times I have made a character's legs too short or arms too long. D: When I have to draw a fullbody I have to peek in on references every now and then because I know I have a problem with some areas.

Thanks for your input! :)

[mialattia.livejournal.com]

Professional illustrators DO use references. However, most of them take those photos themselves, because it's A) the best way to get exactly what you need, and B) the least amount of confusion over usage.

However, not all of us have models or enough of a setup to take timed photos of ourselves that are worth a damn at all. If you cite your reference(s) or use SUCH an amalgamation of different photos that no single one influence you (arm from this one, ohh nice leg pose on that, the turn of the jaw is just right here), you are fine.

Only online communities get up in arms about referencing. Tracing, ripping off styles, etc, are big in the professional illustration community, but refs are not even an issue. Of COURSE artists use reference.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Ideally you'd have an idea of what you want to draw, and then use numerous references to realize your vision.
Life drawing > photo reference > Existing drawings by other people.
Also.
Your own photos > stock photos > copyrighted photos.

[oki-warwolf.livejournal.com]

I certainly would rather use a reference to get a pose right for a commission rather than give my customer a sloppy piece of work. I'd be lost on dynamic poses without references to help me understand how the body moves.

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

Please please continue to use references in that way.
I know an artist whom shows extraordinary talent....but she NEVER uses references. This leads to her messing up on basic anatomy and making animals look nothing like the species they really are.
Referencing is a Good Thing XD

[ocelotish]

As far as I'm concerned there's only legal and illegal. Either you used the image in a way you have permission to, or you didn't. Either you made a derivative image or you didn't. If the image is stock for free use, you can do whatever you like to that puppy. However, I'd warn you to look where the image actually came from to see the TOS on it if you're concerned. (Also, if you take your own photo you can obviously use it for whatever you want.)

[tunavoice.livejournal.com]

I couldn't find a detailed ToS of any kind while using the site (as I've used it before), but the site says that everything on it regarding the figure drawing tool(s) is 100% free.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Using references could fall under a derivative work. Technically, in this case, it would count as a derivative work because you are using an existing form of art to create a new piece of art. Getting the 'offended' party to prove this is another thing entirely, though, depending how closely you referenced the original piece.

As much as it is a nice thing to do never admit to referencing off of other pictures than the ones you own the copyright to. Especially if you are making money off of it. The law and the general artist culture expects that art comes out of the artist from a void, wholly formed, even though in practice this is very much not the case.

[marilyncole.livejournal.com]

As a professional illustrator, I do a lot of image and life study research before I put tool to paper. I do concept/thumbnail sketches of the poses and composition I want from multiple references-- mostly my own.

Using reference material should never be frowned on. Anyone who does has little appreciation and knowledge of what the process of art making is. It is absolutely necessary to study from life-- even with abstract expressionism, artists study shapes, colors, and gestures inspired by the world around us. Just because the character you are drawing is made-up doesn't mean it doesn't connect with life around you.

This being said, you should always do your best to work from your own reference material. Take photos, have a friend do poses, and go out into the field and do concept sketches on-location. It's okay to use other's reference material preferably with permission but Drawing from life gives you the ultimate control over what you want in an illustration.