is this legal?

[redregon.livejournal.com]

imagine that you've been commissioned to draw a character. you get the picture done, but the person doesn't send payment within the agreed time span... does that mean that the characters that you've been asked to draw are your property? i know the pictures would be yours, but what if you wanted to vent some frustration and draw said character in a very VERY unbecoming situation or pose... is that legal? (and yes, i know it would be bad form.)

and no, i don't want to hear the dreck about how characters that aren't actually copyrighted being copyrighted to so and so... last i heard, the "poor man's copyright" of sending an insured package to yourself is inadmissable if it's ever challenged.

Comments

[drake-anaya.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to believe that you can draw those characters however you want, because you've been given permission by the "owner" to create their images... on the other hand, that permission is under the contract of the commission agreement.

then again, they haven't kept up their end of the deal...

in the end, "parody" counts as fair use.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

i'm not doubting you, but would you be able to find some information pertaining to the laws on this, i'd like to read up on it more.

[kaputotter.livejournal.com]

The characters do not "become" your property in any way, shape, or form.

The artist owns only 1) the original and 2) the reproduction rights associated with the image.

Drawing the character in a parody to "get back at" a client, while unprofessional, is indeed legal, so long it does not slander the client in question.

[mottenfest.livejournal.com]

agreed

[susandeer.livejournal.com]

This is correct and very well stated. All of it.

And that being said, to then do such a drawing and have it become known, is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot, should you be relying on commissions for extra money.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

well, in this i have to disagree on parts of it... the character is not the client, it is only a character that they play and in no way is it them specifically... if they would argue that the anthro rabbit that they've asked me to draw is "them" then i would question their mental health... therefore, since the character is not them specifically, it couldn't be libelous no matter how offensive the drawing might get. though , i may be wrong on this since i don't know what all the laws associated with this say regarding this kinda thing.

[auradeva.livejournal.com]

if they would argue that the anthro rabbit that they've asked me to draw is "them" then i would question their mental health

You should get used to that being in the furry fandom, or any other RP fandom for that matter. Their characters are how they represent themselves online which is more a case of social identity than mental health. I'm not even in to role playing but if someone used my anthro unicorn in a piece of slander I would feel hurt.

Regardless of what you draw it is directed at your commissioner. It really doesn't matter if it's legal or not. You already seem to know the difference between right and wrong.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

fair enough... though i'm not in this situation, i'm more curious as to the legality and all that... morally, i know it would be mean to use the character in some kinda revenge scheme, but you never know... i'm sure if someone pushed you far enough, you'd want to dish out some come-uppance, right?

[sepp.livejournal.com]

well, yeah. but there's a huge difference between good, well-played revenge and just being a total ass.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Technically you can draw the character all you want, as long as it isn't offensive to the artist who created it, and you are not being profitted from it.

Although instead of wiping your ass on them for revenge, you might want to consider taking payments first BEFORE starting on the image in the future. A lot of people WILL use artists this way and will settle for a lighthearted sketch or scan and run without paying you.

[ironbadger.livejournal.com]

You got that right!

The "I want to commission you but you have to do a sketch first before i'll send payment" scam is a very common way to get free art from artists.

Anytime its someone else's characters and the art is something you won't be able to sell if its never paid for, get ALL the cash up front.

If they have a problem with that, 9 out of 10 odds are they never intended to pay for it at all, and if they don't pay for the finished art you are up a creek without a paddle for selling it for fair compensation.

Not for the copyright issues- those are really hard to enforce no matter what anyone claims because it takes an actual lawsuit to get anywhere- but because there is a lot of peer disapproval in the fandom to selling art of someone else's characters; even if its justified in cases like this, and it can smear your reputation. (As unfair as that is to artists.)


Get it all up front when you can't sell the art if they don't follow through.
Don't make it easy for someone to rip you off for your hard work.

-Badger-

[grygon.livejournal.com]

The "I want to commission you but you have to do a sketch first before i'll send payment" scam is a very common way to get free art from artists.

that's where very small, very sketchy, and very low dpi jpgs are your friend.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

don't forget "watermarked to all hell" :P

[ironbadger.livejournal.com]

No, then they whine how they can't see anything and want a bigger, clearer image...And won't pay till they get one.
Been there, done that.

-Badger-

[grygon.livejournal.com]

yea, that's when i tell them i've been ripped too many times and they're not getting anything else from me till i see the $$$. been there, done just that. not so hard.

[duraji-synth.livejournal.com]

Well, I would be hesitant to give all my money upfront because frankly some artists completely screw up the concept I plainly asked them to draw (like ignoring the written descriptions I wanted, or adding fetishes that they knew I hate), which is why I tend to pay half and half. That way if nothing works out, they at least got paid for a quick sketch, even if I hate it.

[ironbadger.livejournal.com]

Thats what initial pencils or ball point pen rough sketches the way I do it are for.

I don't proceed until the basic idea is approved.

However, a problem I have definitely had with commissioers, and the nightmarte of any artist, is the commissioner who cannot express what they want clearly- all they can do is bitch about what they DON'T like about a sketch...

Someone like that can tie up your time for months because no matter how you correct what you show them, they are never satisfied, but cannot tell you exactly what they want or what is wrong with what you have shown them.

If a commissioner can't tell me what they want up front, or can't figure out what they want or don't like in the drawing by the second or third revision I usually just send their money back or don't accept it in the first place.

-Badger-

[duraji-synth.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see! Yes, it usually only takes two sketches before I approve it for coloring and stuff, and my characters are scenarios are very known to me, so I can immediately and effectively point out what needs fixing. I always send a character description and some sample pictures if the character has been drawn before, and I'm always free to answer any questions the artist has.

At least you refund the money if things don't work out, though. I've lost money paying for an artist who still hasn't produced anything in over 16 months.

[ironbadger.livejournal.com]

I know artists who have taken over 3 years to complete a commission.
I tell people up front that a commission from me will take one year to deliver from the time I receive payment.
I can usually beat that- but I give fair warning in the initial conversation before we even talk price.

I've had nightmare commissioners, and I've refunded money when it became clear they either couldn't decide what they actually wanted- or changed the description of what they wanted completely after I'd already spent many hours drawing the roughs...

There are good commissioers, and there are artists who can return a finished drawing in weeks once they get the money.
But I can't manage returns that fast because my life is too complicated to make those kind of promises.

-Badger-

[redregon.livejournal.com]

well, i am hesitant to take payments before it's done since i know myself well enough that i don't want to get backed into the corner like that... kinda like giving myself an easy out in case i "just can't get it done" which i'm sure some of us have felt now and then.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Oh of course, I know the feeling.

Just saying it's better to get not screwed out of the cash. If for whatever reason you can't do the commission and have to scrounge up the money for the person after spending it, well... at least you'd be paying for your own mistake rather than paying for someone else's rudeness. ;D

[redregon.livejournal.com]

true... "self induced karma" in a way :P

[ex-midnightf139.livejournal.com]

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to draw the character doing anything you want, so long as maybe you don't post it publically. It can be considered hate art and a personal attack if you post it somewhere pubically, and you might get into trouble, depending on where it is, if the owner of the character finds out.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

fair enough... though i don't make any assumptions about me being a "good guy" since if i get pissed off enough, all rationality goes out the window... and being stiffed would piss me off enough.

hell, i've done drawings of characters before in positions that would piss off the character's player cause the player has pissed me off enough, though nothing illegal :P

[wolflahti.livejournal.com]

Characters cannot be copyrighted. Period.

No matter how many times VCL or even Yerf entries say 'Character X copyrighted to so-and-so', it does not change the copyright laws. Only the specific rendering of a character or an idea (yada-yada) can be copyrighted.

Characters and names can be trademarked, but that is another venue entirely, covered by a completely different set of laws and procedures, and always involves registration and an exchange of money. There is no free trademark in the sense that there is a 'free copyright'.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

technically, yes. if the company that owns the copyrighted/trademarked character finds out, they are (AFAIK) obligated to protect their copyrights or risk losing it... if the person is asking you to draw, say, simba and nala getting it on and they're paying you for it, that could get both of you in hot water.

though, on the flip side, what they don't know won't kill you, eh?

[grygon.livejournal.com]

thank you.

and yes, i'll be very descreet if i ever post it on line... damn.

*delets her original question, don't wanna leave a trail after all* ;)

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

An intriuging question you pose.Now personally, I would have made them send me money (at least half of it) up front before I started the commision, so you don't get stuck with a finished commision and no money. Now as to what to do with the piece after the fact, I'd say just put it up on the web as an example of your work. If you don't get money for it and like it well enough it should serve at least some purpose in being an example of your work. And if someone is mad about free art, forget 'em.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

well, i'm more the "pay when proof of it being done" kinda guy since i know myself well enough to know that i won't always have the time to devote to getting it done and all that... hell, i'll also admit, i still have an outstanding commission that i have yet to do that i've already been paid for (i am going to send the payment with the drawing since it's been waay too long as i see it)

i guess that's one of the prices of taking intense college courses like mine. :/

[grygon.livejournal.com]

i'm in the same boat as you- busy as all heck with college AND a full time job. BUT: i keep my commissioners well-informed. cause i once was ripped by an artist. and i don't want my own commissioners thinking i'm ripping them. at all. i lost $400 to BlaqueTygriss on something i commissioned her to do. :( and it's always on my mind, like a reverse guilt, making me do my own commissioners better.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

forgot the important bit- i only do a commission AFTER payment. cause i've also had a TON of commissioners email me for 1, then never pay.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

If the character was existing before you were commissioned to draw it the intellectual property remains with the person who originally came up with it. If you were commissioned to create a character from scratch then it would belong to you if no payment was made.

Either way, drawing a bad customer's character in a compromising position just to antagonize them is childish and bad for your reputation. Take the high road dude.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Oh, and by the way.

Characters CAN be copyrighted but I'm a little vague on the process still. It supposedly involves accurately describing, in written form, the character and what makes it unique. I'm still looking into that, but it's not well-known because no-one uses it. Trademarking is easier.

[banrai.livejournal.com]

I've a friend (Ahkahna) that went through this process, and from what she's told me she had to do a bazillion drawings of the character, studies, angle shots, turn arounds, etc. It's a lot of work. :/

[redregon.livejournal.com]

i'm guessing there's also a signifigant pricetag associated in getting the paperwork done for this as well...

[grygon.livejournal.com]

yep, i forget how much but on her journal Ahkahna once, or a few times, stated how much it cost her to do this... it was tons. nothing i could afford, but soemthing i bet was well-worth-it to her.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

aah, though i see the merit of playing the morally just, i can't say that i'd be able to think rationally about it like that... someone stiffs me the cash, then they get what they deserve... granted, if they explain why they can't pay me, i'll likely be understanding (as i know that it's not always that easy if they have a low paying job and rent to pay... hell, i've been there myself) but that requires the willingness to communicate.

and besides, i'll be blunt... i really don't care about reputation in the fandom, the people that know me in this fandom know me well. why should i really care about what someone across the globe is saying about me behind my back? it's not like they can actually do anything to me (well, aside from trash talk and spread rumours.)

[neongryphon.livejournal.com]

If you’ve lost cash on this individual already, then don’t forfeit more time, effort and resources in a trivial pursuit for vengeance. Cut your losses, learn from the experience and move on. I’d suggest requesting half payment, or full payment up front next time. Good artists are never lacking in commissioners willing to pay upfront because they’ve a reputation for honest, reliable business. Focus more on developing that than nursing a grudge.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

well, this is only theoretics... aside from the commission i've already been paid to do, i don't ahve any in the queue awaiting payment.

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Someone stiffs you the cash and you tell all your artist friends who stiffed you what amount of cash for what kind of work they wanted. Most artists don't want to risk doing business with people who have a reputation for not paying up.

The guy who stiffed you is wrong but if you drop a drama-bomb on this there will always be uninformed morons people taking his side (been there, done that), it'll explode into time and energy consuming nastyness and you'll get a bad reputation and good customers who do pay up will start avoiding you. At one point you'll want your circle of customers to expand beyond close friends who know you're not a drama-monger.

And you can't tell me you don't care about what people say about you if it's going to hurt your business, you already took a commission and I think you'll probably want to take them in the future.

Don't let one smelly twat ruin that for you, you don't want him to rob you of even more money than he already has.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

well, to be honest, this is only theoretics... i don't have a commission on the table aside from what i've already been paid for.

i do understand completely what you're saying though.

[acexcat.livejournal.com]

I had one where I did a pic to be NICE to someone and they turned out to be a real 'hole... getting ANY info or feedback about what's right or wrong was painful and slow as coupld possibly be, and when finished, instead of even bothering with a 'thanks' or a "that's nice" or even, "it's the thought that counts", all I got was, to quote, "That's not as F#@%'ed up as I thought it was going to be."

...granted, shortly after the jackass self-destructed or something and thankfully hasn't been back, leaving me with that image I created.

What I did was change the name, splash in a few different colors and add a couple odd details, create some cheap/lame/boring/cookie cutter character story and sell it as my own completely different character.

Mentioned that option becuase it sounds like you might be able to use it pretty soon here. Give the guy a chance... sometimes people honestly don't have the money. If you're getting ANY feedback for the moment, give it a couple weeks. Once it gets into months, then sell it off on eBuy or whatever.

Spite can be a beautiful thing.

[redregon.livejournal.com]

yeowch... yeah i'd have a hard time biting my tongue if someone was like that with me... especially for giftart.

[duraji-synth.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, no one has the right to complain about gift art. They can be disappointed if the artist really made the person excited about said piece of gift art, but, still, considering all the free effort the artist put in, I cannot justify someone whining about it.

I'm not the greatest artist, but I have done gift art before, and one of the people I did a picture for barely even seemed to notice or care.

[acexcat.livejournal.com]

Good or not, unless you're an absolute speed freak that puts out more art in a single day than you can keep track of, chances are, a LOT of work went into that, so yeah.... frustrating; sorry to hear. >-.-<

Sometimes people just don't bother to think about what it takes to produce something like that, so that scribbly image that someone took a month to finish gets a callous comment like, "Oh wow, that sucks like nothing I've ever seen before!"

I think of that scene in Napolean Dynamite... not THAT guy was a horrible artist... passionate, but horrible.... and even that girl (with prompting from her mom, granted) had the decency to at least say thanks, if not for the product, than for the effort and the admiration it takes to pour that kind of time and effort into something.

Anyhow, face to the future, do it a few thousand more times and most important, do it for yourself. ^-^