Art Traders Beware: AngelWolf

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

WHO:
AngelWolf on FA

WHERE:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/angelwolf/

WHAT:
An un-formal art trade: Badge for Badge.
Most of the communication, sadly, was done through FA shouts which are easily deleted and are no longer able to cap. The trade was initiated some time before I completed my half back in July 2010. After close to 3 years now, Ive given up on ever receiving this badge.



WHEN: 
I honestly dont recall when it was began. But I do remember her asking me via shout if we could do a badge trade. If I could guess it would have been shortly before AnthroCon 2010 so June 2010 until today.

PROOF:
See below all in proof screen grabs,
All of the screen grabs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wintersnowolf/sets/72157631774762737/
My half of the trade: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4201234/

EXPLAIN: 
I completed my trade by mid July, in a timely manner which can be seen here: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4201234/
I left it to her to see whenever she felt fit to complete her half.

Several notes (as well as shouts asking for an update) were exchanged. The only notes on hand I have are here:
Nov 3, 2011: http://flic.kr/p/djThR7
Her reply on Nov 13, 2011: http://flic.kr/p/djThME
My reply back asking a few things Nov 13, 2011: http://flic.kr/p/djThNY
No reply to that note.

She then posts her art: http://flic.kr/p/djTh8p
I even typed up a nice comment, super happy to have finally seen it! I get no reply... 

Nov 18, 2011, I give her my address and ask for her address so I can send out my half after seeing hers: http://flic.kr/p/djTiRF
No reply to that note...

Several months go by and here and there I do kindly remind her of our trade, via shouts, and asking when can I send my half to her. I remember one reply said something along the lines of "Since you live overseas, its going to be very expensive to ship, I dont have that money right now to do that :(" Okay, so you cant cover a $5 overseas shipping charge. No big. Ill wait. I ship things overseas all the time. In fact, I ship things on a weekly basis  Then, it really got old; she's taking more trades, and more commissions. All the while my other shouts asking when I can send my half to her go un-replied.

Finally sick of it, I tell her to just give me an address so I can at least do the right thing and give her my half. Testy, I write up a pretty annoyed reply, but after broken promises for additional arts, and a -watch later (from much earlier I noticed, not due to this last note) I have come to being sick of having her name sit on my waiting list for a trade. I had full intensions of shipping her half out, and not even caring if I ever received mine. 

I get this reply to my note last night: http://flic.kr/p/djThLE

Okay, so I do not bother you for over a year to finally do our trade, then once its finally done you take another year before I even bother asking you again to mail it out and you accuse me of harassing you; I didnt know waiting 2+ years for a trade was harassing :\

So, Im sick of it, and decide to leave the note unanswered, block her, remove her from my watch list and Im going to just throw the badge away. Its not worth waiting to send out old, out-of-date art any more. And just to show I still do, yes in fact, have the badge to this day! I placed it in an over-sized envelope, with a blank piece of paper & cardboard backing since the day I posted it to FA (and finished it), in preparation for shipping.

Here is a photo I took today of that badge: http://flic.kr/p/djUdiW


Biggest worry; I see she is trading with more people, and taking commissions for more art: Buyer and Artists Beware. This girl is nothing short of someone that clearly holds no responsibility for her actions and has no intentions of fulfilling a trade, much less a paid commission. And if you want anything more than a low quality scan forget about it. The original has no chance of making it to you ever it seems. If you dont have a place to mail things to in the first place, dont take a trade and waste peoples time.



EDIT: Angel has reached out to me to give an address: To keep it fair, since she cannot receive my half then I do not want hers. This is merely a beware to any one else to see the lack of communication and the year+ time it took to even trade. Had I known she never wanted to physically receive my half I would have never spent the extra time to cut, laminate and prepare it for shipping so it could serve its purpose as a badge to wear. As someone below stated we are both equal in the fact that neither of us have physically received our shares. I dont wish her to spend money on shipping it out.

Comments

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I've approved your post, but could you please edit it so there isn't the large block of white space on the bottom?

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

Believe me I tried. Im really sorry and am truly unsure why its doing that. Ill try again to fix it! Many apologies, and also thank you.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Sometimes the real text editor can be a PITA, it's a weird format!

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

Ah success! There we go. Again my bad >.>

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Thanks for fixing it!

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

That's truly unfortunate. I've seen her frequent my streams from time to time. That's a very unprofessional attitude she has about the whole situation, shady indeed. I'll keep this in mind when dealing with her in the future. Sorry you went through that.

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

Yeah me too. All I wished was to send out her half but I am even denied to do that. Not really sure where else to handle this anymore other than here.

[ryunwoofie.livejournal.com]

Now that I read both of your sides both of you handled this quite poorly attitude wise and professionally. You for being a little too strict with rules that were never agreed upon or talked about before said trade was agreed. (edit: haha now that I read below your 'rules' no those are NOT basic 'trade rules' not in the slightest.) Maybe in the future you should specify more clearly what you expect before you end up in a situation like this again, especially about the shipping. Angel because she was less communicative about the situation, and dropping the trade because she didn't have time, big nono. She does however have rights to keep her personal life/issues to herself and if she gives you a reason why she can't get mail that should be enough. Either way it looks pretty poorly on both of you. I hope you can understand where most of us are coming from.

Anyway, good luck I hope you two can come to an agreement of some sort.

[forsaken-malice.livejournal.com]

Firstly, Wintersnowolf asked for the trade in a journal of mine- and yes, I realize that's fairly irrelevant. And, yes, I do agree that I took an unreasonable amount of time to finish my half of the trade. And yes I realize that's not good form. I had intended to ship these badges at the time but personal circumstances made it impossible- and yes, I realize that's not good either. However I didn't receive any of the other halves of these trades in the mail and I didn't have any problems with the other traders when I was unable to ship- I wasn't looking to screw anyone over. That part at least was mostly a well -intentioned idea just not panning out.

I suppose I probably just should have said I wouldn't be able to ship Wintersnowolf's badge too, but for some reason I held onto the hope that I could at the time. I wasn't in a good place- and if I need to explain I will- I just don't want to mention anything personal in case it's taken as an attempt at excuses. I have offered to send the badge out NOW if she wants it (yes it is late, but I've only recently gained the freedom to do so. $5 or in my case £5 may not sound like a big deal to anyone here, but for me it WAS until very recently). I don't expect my half and that shouldn't leave any burden on her shoulders. The lack of address issues on my end are personal and I'll only go into it if I have to.

In the note I mention harassment- this is due to a number of shouts on my page written in a snippy manner (or at least that's how it came off- who knows with internet perception) however since I delete most shouts, I don't have them. I suppose bringing them up on either side of this argument is redundant. As far as not replying to notes, I just lose track of them easily (especially if I earmark them to be replied to later) as they tend to get extremely cluttered. My commissions are handled via email for the most part nowadays. I've been thinking about disabling notes for awhile now and this problem has made it clear I need to do so.

I never replied to her comment on my half of the trade simply because I don't reply to all the comments I receive. I just don't have the time- even if I'm pleased to receive them and happy to hear that things were liked.

My last note was probably uncalled for but the note before that came off as so rude I just snapped. That's my fault. I wasn't having a great day in the first place and I just replied without cooling off so I could answer sans emotion.

However I don't feel that my name as an artist should be dragged through the mud regarding commissions over one trade gone awry- especially over shipping. I haven't had any complaints from my commissioners and I do my work. The Buyer's beware is just petty. I've not left any of them hanging on progress or completion- especially without contacting them first. I charge a bit extra for shipping to cover the 9x12 cardboard envelopes and costs of shipping commissions- but my commissioners usually prefer the scan on its own (They are offered a high-quality scan with the option of shipping at any time- I keep everything I draw). I only trade with friends nowadays- leisurely.

I'd like to resolve this, but I honestly don't see a way to clear things up while I'm blocked on FA. At a bit of a loss.

[pinstripedtiger.livejournal.com]

Just a quick thought: Your name isn't being 'dragged through the mud.'

You handled a situation badly, you admitted that yourself. People would want to be aware that you've done this before. An A_B post isn't the end of your reputation.

At any rate, you didn't send the badge for... two years. I think the last paragraph in the beware may be a bit harsh, but. You took on a bad attitude and took two years to send a badge.

You acted unprofessionally, and future traders / commissioners / clients have the right to know about that.

If you don't like being posted here, don't act so unprofessionally.

[taasla.livejournal.com]

This.

Also I'm glad that you're owning up to the mistakes that you've made, and I'm pretty sure you two can exchange addresses via PM here on LJ.

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

I had tried nicely time and time again to get into contact with you to get an address; attempting numerous times to get you your half. Whatever the situation is that prohibits you from receiving mail makes me wary as a customer: What if I were to commission you and the commission were to get lost, did she put a return address so it can be recovered?

I never seemed to notice effort being put forth into getting the completion of your half. I shouldn't have to remind you to do it nor is it my responsibility to ask several times for an address.

If my internet typing seemed a bit harsh, I did not mean for it to. I am extremely frank but also genuine when I speak. Nothing more to my tone other than that.

As far as resolution goes, you have my mailing address. Its been discussed that I move in December. The metaphorical ball is in your court, but after 2+ years I honestly have given up with waiting.

I participate in the furry community on a regular basis, meaning I take commissions, and mail or email them in a timely manner. Trades hold just as high a priority to me as far as being prompt goes. I believe in being on time and delivering things quickly and professionally... I thought you did too.

[nanashi-itsumo.livejournal.com]

Whilst the time taken was unreasonable, was there ever a written agreement that things would be shipped out? I get the impression you just kind of assumed.
Living in the UK, I can tell you that shipping can be expensive and as angelwolf has explained, at the time she couldn't afford to pay the shipping. Did you ever offer to pay your half of the shipping since you were so desperate for the badge and she could pay her shipping when she could afford to - you would have your badge and she wouldn't receive hers until she could afford it.
Also, blocking seems kind of stupid. You clearly want a resolution by posting to A_B after this length of time. So how is she meant to contact you if you've blocked her?
I'm sorry but this all seems rather petty - looking at the artists gallery, all her commissions have been fulfilled with no issue. Your last paragraph was very very immature and backs up my feelings of this just being petty.

A final note - "I had full intensions of shipping her half out, and not even caring if I ever received mine."
So you made an A_B because someone has no fixed address (which is what I'm assuming from angelwolf's reply)?
Your entire post implies you DO care you didn't get it posted out but this one line contradicts everything else :/

[kowe]

+1.

[creatore-magico.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to agree here.

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

Firstly you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

As Ive done my fair share of trades in the past and they have always resulted in shipping them out. Yes I was going to pay my share for shipping, of course! Thats how trades work: You pay for your shipping, they pay for theirs. I ship things over seas all the time, trades & commissions. No it was never written out. I figured she knew the common rules of the trade :\

What I want is other people trading or commissioning her to beware. I told her I was moving, er go, things sometimes get lost in the process. Hence, why I wanted to mail it out and not continue to hold onto it after 2+ years. Yes, I wanted to at least fulfill my half honorably with the trade. But when she gives me no address what else am I suppose to do. Obviously she has friends that can hang out, perhaps it could have been sent there instead. After a year plus of having 'no address to mail things to' it seemed a little off.

The block was because I'm tired of being the sole person to reach out to make the trade happen. If she just point blank didn't want to ship, she should have said so, even after both parties delivered the art. Being forthright and honest that she doesn't want shipping to be part of the exchange especially for a badge, all she needed to do was to tell me after several tries privately asking her whats up with shipping. After several forms of contact seem to have failed, after several years, this seems to be the most direct way of receiving any reply out of her that doesn't sound like an excuse.

Edit done for spelling errors.

[mekania.livejournal.com]

I can't read the notes but from the writeup and the artist's response here there was no point at which the artist said "the trade was for a digital scan only I'm sorry I can't ship this for trade."

So I think this line of arguing and putting it on the OP for assuming is pretty invalid.

[linksage.livejournal.com]

This is how I'm feeling as well.

[creatore-magico.livejournal.com]

I'm really sad to see this post being that I've commissioned this artist several times before and she's been nothing but professional, friendly and approachable to me each and every time.

I think if an artist is suffering a personal issue it's very hard to communicate that to someone on-line, since it's impossible to go into detail about such things. Perhaps she should have just told you from the first that she would be un-able to ship the badge to you physically, but apart from that I can't see how her behaviour merits a post like this. She likely thought she would be able to ship to you but circumstances changed.

If somebody doesn't have an address, there is nothing they can really do about that. Did you consider that they might be officially homeless and unable to use a friends address for mail? I'm sure it could have been handled better, but in the end you both equally traded your traditional art digitally and neither one of you had to pay any additional shipping fees. The trade was fulfilled in full.

I'm sorry for your bad experience and stress it caused you, but I wouldn't flag this artist as someone never to commission or trade with. They seem to fulfil all of their other commissions and trades as far as I can see. I think the main issue is that you are judging someone else's behaviour on the way you behave yourself. Since you find it easy/affordable to get things together and ship them out you have assumed someone else will have the same attitude. In truth some people have more difficulty with such things and commissions rather than trades would probably take priority.

As an outsider looking in, your messages did seem a little pushy and impatient. Of course, after waiting a year or so that is understandable but I think just letting it go might have been a better idea than all of this.

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

When several other forms of communication have failed, I could think of no better way than to make the situation aware for others. My attitude may have seemed pushy, I'm aware of this. However as I addressed above, my tone and attitude can be perceived as anything. But my tone is genuinely frank. Nothing more.

And it was closing in on 3 years. My biggest points to make was:
-It took her close to 18 months just to show her half
-She never seemed to put forth the effort to privately note me on anything

A personal issue may be the reason for no address, but hey if she doesn't have a place to live, should she really be making all these trades instead of focusing on bettering her living situations? Further, if she is homeless, I never pried into the reasoning's of it. It is up to her discretion to make it known or not why. I highly respect that personal aspect of her life.

[fuzzwolfie.livejournal.com]

Ehh.

I don't feel like either one of you responded appropriately. I think waiting 1.5 years for someone to finish a trade is bad form. But one half had already been finished, so there was no "backing out," especially if money was an issue. (Like, they couldn't simply pay you for the work and stop the trade.) So you have every right to be upset there.

But the other artist has also made it clear that life has been a tough run for her. If she simply couldn't afford to ship it on her own, I really feel more respect should be given to that. It's very possible they she's not comfortable telling you she couldn't ship it, and your comments actually made her feel more contracted to do so. From an outside perspective, I see a highly possible downward spiral occurring.

Also, I understand your want to be "genuinely frank," and honest at all times. That is a commendable trait. However, if even you are willing to admit you can seem pushy or aggressive, perhaps you should also take this as an opportunity to hone your professional communication skills. Honestly is a high priority, but being able to emphasize grace and tack when doing so may help you avoid similar situations.

[linksage.livejournal.com]

Is it just me or was there a lot of communication going on that we aren't seeing in these screenshots?

[sbneko.livejournal.com]

OP mentioned in the post that all communication was done a long time ago on FA, so they no longer have the notes.

OP: Did you only delete them? When you delete a note, it goes into trash, so it'll still be there, unless you cleaned that out too.

[pekoeko.livejournal.com]

It isn't just you.
I feel like this poster intentionally left out some of the 'harassment' material and hounding. We've no idea how many times they shouted on their wall either. Spamming the entire page, PROBABLY with inflammatory language (such as 'don't commission this person they are unreliable') DOES constitute harassment. We don't know if that did or did not happen. It seems like we're missing a lot of notes/emails too.

I agree with the above that more respect should've been afforded to the address issue. You keep bringing up 'should she really be taking trades instead of finding better living circumstances'. That's uncalled for, and you're applying your personal views on someone else which is unfair. Other posters here are correct, you have no idea what her living/personal situation is NOR SHOULD YOU. That is her business. Being in a trade with you does not give you free access to her financial/social situation just because she owes you a piece of work.

YES she acted unprofessionally. I would probably not trade with her because of that, but looking through her gallery, all her commissions/paid work are taken very responsibly it seems. She seems to have a good turn-around, and the previous customers of hers who've posted here seem to have nice things to say about her. Saying she doesn't deserve to be commissioned based on a TRADE is childish and petty. I've done lots of trades where I didn't get even the ARTWORK ever for the trade, let alone have it shipped. I think this is a personal hangup even three years later because your tone/language comes off as condescending rather than 'forward' or 'abrupt'.

I feel like there's two sides to this story. If anything, I'm less inclined to deal with the OP after seeing their responses on here, than I am to avoid the artist in question. I don't think you've been as 'forthright' as you claim, and are leaving out messages/communication, which is not a truthful representation of things. I also feel you need to stop hanging onto pettiness three years later, if you 'don't mind' like you say but then you go on to say they shouldn't be trusted with commissions, which I personally feel is in a WAY different league of responsibility than trades even WITH work done, is unfair and just plain bitter and vindictive. Personally, this is a beware against the poster for me.

[wintersnowolf.livejournal.com]

All notes sent and received are up there. Other forms of communication were shouts which are no longer available.