Paypal Seller Questions

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

Hi guys, I'm looking for advice, and well, this is the only place I can think of to really ask.

I've been sort of poking around the idea of selling some custom plushies and digital art commissions, and I was looking at getting a paypal to use for payment. However I have heard a LOT of scary things about paypal.

The primary concern: People filing chargeback using excuses such as "I did not get the item" or "Item did not match description" When it is completely untrue.

I've also read some nasty stories where paypal essentially backs out and says "Too bad" and you loose both the item AND the money involved.

So I wanted to know, is this a common occurrence? Because if it is, and I eventually get around to selling big-ticket items, I don't want to get cheated out of a couple hundred or something because someone decided to file a charge back because "The fur is a shade lighter then dark mocha chocolate brown discontinued fur that I wanted but we agreed that I couldn't get even though we discussed and found an alternative." You know? Am I worrying about nothing? If I'm not, are there any good alternatives?

Thank you!

Comments

[theassassinnox.livejournal.com]

I've been using paypal for years (at least a couple of transactions per week...money coming in, I'm a home business.) I've never had a problem.

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

I've never had a chargeback using Paypal, which I've used for years.

[mrst4nkr.livejournal.com]

I have never had that kind of an issue with paypal, but I don't sell items greater than $80 usually.

[techno4tomcats.livejournal.com]

Merchant Systems are only as reliable as the people who use it. I use Paypal for high end sales as well as low end, and Paypal has never given me grief.

However clients and buyer have been flaky, which you can't avoid no matter what payment method you use.
I like Paypal because it is easy to use, handles Credit, debit and bank accounts in major currencies. it's easy to track and convert payments and I think a lot of 'rumours' about it are exaggerated. Been using it for seven or so years and would recommend it over any other online payment system.

[techno4tomcats.livejournal.com]

Your best method against picky customers is to have a clear and concise TOS you can use as reference. And make sure customers send payment as Goods/Services. Not gift or other. It makes dealing with problems so much easier on your end..

[uozlulu.livejournal.com]

If you're concerned about say someone saying "Oh I didn't get that," then put tracking on your packages that you ship so that you can have confirmation that the person did indeed receive and sign for the item(s) in question.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

For some reason that never entered my head. Thanks for mentioning that!

[silverfalln.livejournal.com]

It's not a huge issue. I've been a PayPal member for like 10 years, and have had an issue. The most important thing is to keep receipts (edit: with tracking information, as mentioned above) of when you sent something in the post, as well as pictures, preferably learning how to have a date imprinted on the photo. Digital cameras can do this. It's basically proof that the item was made and shipped, so there's not much someone can do. If it's an actualy product that will be shipped to them, have them pay with "Goods," otherwise, have them use "Service" (since a digital commission is a service, not an actual, physical good. Exception would be if you were to ship a print).

The only issue I've -ever- had was an eBay issue, where the seller never shipped the item, and I was out about $75. This was before the PayPal/eBay merger, so there were issues of eBay basically requiring you to wait longer than PayPal's dispute period.

Also, factor in the fees into your prices, and set PayPal up as a business account. You can not only accept payments from credit cards, so the customer doesn't have the have a PayPal account, but you can get a debit card as a business member, so you don't have to wait for the money to transfer into your bank account. My PayPal debit card is so handy.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

That sounds really nice. I'm beginning to think I've read the worst of the worst, and the most unlikely of unfortunate things that could happen. =)

Also, just out of curiousity, how long would you hold onto the reciepts for before doing a little spring cleaning?

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I've been using paypal for 8 years now (3 as an artist) and haven't had to do nor received a chargeback. I agree with the advice here, to have a clear TOS, make sure things are always listed as goods or service, and factor tracking into the cost of your shipping (it's not too much, all things considered!)

[thaily.livejournal.com]

Have been using Paypal for ages and I've had no problems with charge-backs.
But then all but one of my customers so far have been very nice and reasonable people, no swindlers or scammers, which is what you should really be iffy about. Don't ignore red flags when you get them, don't be afraid to ask for advice when you do.

One point, don't sell porn/sex-related items with Paypal, they have a rule against that.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Not that that stops a lot of people who then make a journal about how the big evil doodoo heads at Paypal froze their account and took their money when they got caught selling inflationist porn or something... this is why everyone should read the rules of the services they use.

I don't think Alertpay has the same rule against adult stuff. So one could just use that for their porn.

[kriscynical.livejournal.com]

In my experience, no, it is not a common ocurrence. I'm not in the furry circles, though, so maybe it's just the age groups within the clientele doing douchey things like chargebacks? In my normal (meaning non-furry, not that furry art isn't normal :P) illustration commission business everything has run smoothly *knock on wood*. I've been using paypal for about 12 years now.

I would recommend frequently transferring your balance over to a checking account, though (which is free to transfer), because Paypal can just lose your money with no real reason and you're just stuck.

It's still good to have a Paypal account, though, since that's the service most everyone is the most familiar with because it's the most established, so buyers are more comfortable using it in my experience.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

Good advice about moving money to your bank account! I try to keep my Paypal balance fairly low, because i trust my bank more than PP.

[raeraesama.livejournal.com]

Never had a chargeback, personally. You know what they say: people with bad experiences are more vocal than those with good experiences.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figured that was the case. =) I'm glad I asked here.

[lozpie.livejournal.com]

I've had a chargeback from a buyer once, claiming the item never arrived. However I had proof of postage and a tracking number which showed the item had been delivered. It wasn't furry related, it was through etsy, and it was a low cost item. They were complaining that it didn't arrive from UK to USA quick enough for their friend's birthday.

Paypal took my side and they didn't refund her.

From my experience paypal is an excellent service that protects both buyers and sellers. :) But make sure you follow their terms to get seller protection, by sending items with proof of postage and tracking, or they can't help you.

I'm not sure how it works for 'item not as described' claims, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that buyers can't make claims against custom-made items.

[snapcat.livejournal.com]

I work for PayPal
We have Seller Protection for all items. Always ship items with delivery confirmation/tracking. This way, you have a record that the item was shipped and that the buyer received it. Buyer disputes do not happen often at all, but if they file one for "Item not received" or "item not as discribed" you will be asked to provide two things:
1) tracking showing delivery of item
2) you will always be given the chance to tell your side of the story.
With tracking, you will be covered... even if for some reason the buyer does file a chargeback or a financial comes up as fraudulent or stolen. with Seller Protection, PayPal will then take money out of their pocket to reimburse you.

Do not worry. As long as you ship the items as you described them,with tracking and in a timely basis, you will never have to worry about Buyers trying to take your money back. Its all about being a good seller and having a solid business model.

[crssafox.livejournal.com]

I have to add to this, even if for some reason they decide against your side of the story in the resolution center, you can still call them up and discuss the issue with a PayPal rep. I had to do this when a delay in computer information caused my tracking number to reflect a day later than I shipped an item, since I use a shipping store that doesn't update their shipment info until the next morning. This guy had filed a dispute the same day I actually shipped it out (according to the rep I initially spoke to, it was because it was "a stolen credit card" even though all info had been verified..?) but was able to resolve the whole thing when I spoke to a manager and they understood. I don't know what the actual issue with the dispute was (I don't think they could technically legally tell me if it was a stolen credit card issue, but I don't know for sure) but since the amount was relatively small ($22) and I typically move thousands of dollars through my PayPal account each year, they went ahead and ate that cost and credited my account back.

So even when things go "wrong," some calm discussion with representatives can help figure things out.

Also, for what it's worth, I've only ever heard of two people that have filed disputes for 'item not received' on artists, it really doesn't happen that often. PayPal's been around for so long, they really are pretty good at what they do, and they've got provisions in place to take care of those of us that bring them revenue. After all, what would they do without sellers?

[kakabel.livejournal.com]

You know,since making the suits takes a while, why not mail a scrap of the fur to the buyer, after the first payment is made?
(I ask for 1/2 up front, and 1/2 once completed, but before shipping so that the buyer feels secure that they will get their items, as rare is the scammer who will take off with only 1/2 of the fees.) ;)

I also have a disclaimer on my etsy items that
*Colours may not be exactly as shown, since all monitors vary.*
to avoid that very thing. :)

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

That's a good plan. I never really hear about builders and plushie makers sending samples to their clients so it never crossed my mind. That is something I will do.

Thank you for the advice. =)

[amarafox.livejournal.com]

I have done hundreds and hundreds of transactions through paypal and have not had one chargeback, fraudulent or otherwise.

Most of the fraudulent chargebacks come from unscrupulous ebay buyers.

[sovy.livejournal.com]

Sellers have a lot better protection than buyers, to be honest.

[hbruton.livejournal.com]

I adore Paypal. and while I have heard the stories also, I've never had any problem at all with the service.

voodoowolf_arts

[voodoowolf-arts.livejournal.com]

I have had a problem here or there with different things (not being able to remove a creditcard) getting a charge back before the guy talked to me. ect ect but really you just have to remember you are a business and in return so is paypal just act professional and dont do silly things. (like sell porn)

Alert pay is an option for adult things BUT you have to send what you are making to them (like tell them the stuff) in order to receive approval to be a seller for adult things. if you are approve you must pay a flat rate as well as a percentage of what you make so really you lose a lot more than ya gain imo >> there is just so much legal stuff surrounding things of an adult nature its hard for gateways to monitor and still keep their butts covered.

another thing to think about are the paypal fees please please please dont tell them to use the gift option or tell your costumers to figure the fee in on top of your set commission prices. This is a lot of the reason you hear people getting their account frozen on FA i have watched many artists try to get around the fee any way they can but when it comes down to it you are making money by using paypal's gateway and if you are the one making money why should your customers pay the fee?

hope the bit of info helps =)

Re: voodoowolf_arts

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you ;) I have no intention of selling pornographic work, or adult related items, and definately plan not to shaft paypal fees by using the gift option. I'm a pretty honest person, and thuroughly believe that not paying the paypal fees is 'stealing' their service. I mean it's technically because of them that I'm able to make money, right? That'd be like walking into a grocery store, asking them to sell your product but not make any money off of it because you want it all. It's kinda lame that people do that.

[kamakru.livejournal.com]

I know you have a lot of advise already, but I just wanted to add a little (or, at least say how I've been doing things, and maybe it will help you).
- First off, I've had no trouble with paypal =]

- Always put tracking on packages (or insured for sending out of country). I step it up to signature confirmation for anything $30 or more, especially if it's something that cannot be replaced easily (like an original). Anything over $60 I add insurance too, especially if it's a custom piece.

- Make sure you have a clear TOS that covers all the important points, including color variation. For Etsy you can put some of this in the 'sellers note' which the buyer automatically receives when they purchase the item. For anything custom, make out a contract specifically to that person and have them 'sign' it through e-mail.

- Always mark transactions and packages *exactly* for what they are. Do not use the 'gift' option on paypal to get around they're fees. Also, when sending something out of the country don't ever mark it as gift if it's not (it's very illegal and could get you some hefty fines).

So all in all, Paypal isn't an issue really. As long as you handle your customers and work well you shouldn't have any trouble at all, or at least very little.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a good plan. Just gotta use some common sense to protect the item and deliverer's intregrity, honor paypals TOS, make my own TOS, and make sure the customer understands that there are things out of both of our controls (Moniter differences, acts of God), ect.

Thank you very much =)

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

I have only twice had problems with paypal, both from Etsy transactions, and I've done hundreds of transactions over the past 3 years.

If a credit-card company does a charge-back (a person can do this up to a YEAR after the purchase) then you have no recourse. That is very rare though, and in some cases you can dispute it. I had this happen where I had already refunded the person (there was an issue with shipping) and a month later they did a credit-card charge-back for funds I had already refunded through paypal--so paypal gave them the money twice rather than fight it. I tried to fix it but they wouldn't accept the refund given through their own system as proof. I didn't pursue it because I was only out $10 or so.

Second was an overseas buyer. I'm dead certain they got the item, but filed with paypal anyways. I don't mark my items as gifts since it's illegal, so sometimes there's duties. Some people are not happy when that happens, and in this case she did a chargeback for revenge along with some very nasty emails. There are very little protections for sellers dealing overseas. I will say though that at least a third of my customer base is not from the US, if you won't ship overseas you will probably lose a lot more money than you risk by doing so. It's worth it. I just try to pay myself fairly and consider the risk as part of overhead.

If you ship frequently use a carrier that allows you to track packages overseas--USPS cannot in most contries. Remember, paypal needs proof it was DELIVERED not that it was sent. This is why, even if you buy delivery confirmation, you can get screwed if the item doesn't arrive. Insurance is cheap--there's no reason to not include it on big-ticket items and it will solve so many issues. Endica is a good service if you are a medium to high-volume shipper.

There is no way to accept money that doesn't come with some risk. Paypal's fees are extremely reasonable (just look at what it normally costs to accept cards and you won't ever complain about their fees again o.o) and because it's convenient and popular you will find that a good 80% of your customer base will use it. I have lost more money by accepting checks and money-orders than I have from accepting paypal--checks can bounce.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

That's all some good advice. I mean I knew that there are some people out there who would try to abuse the system. I just didn't know how common it was.

I'm glad you mentioned overseas to me because that was infact, going to be my primary target, just because I know a lot of people do in fact limit themselves to US only.

Have you had a lot of trouble with language barries?

[ocelotish]

I can't give you much advice about paypal, but if you want to reduce the amount of people complaining about product I'd make sure to specify the lighting conditions the photo was taken under (cloudy days have the best light for this btw - it's actually white and generally softer), and if possible include something in the photo that they can use for comparison. Ex: You have a colored pice of a blue macaw, you might put it next to a pack of oreos. The oreo packaging is something that is consistent in different regions and it will show the color next to a blue they know, so they have a point of reference - the blue of the head is a little lighter and a little redder than the color of a pack of oreos.

[trimblecat.livejournal.com]

I wasn't so much worried about people complaining about a product more so that they use cheap excuses to get their money back aswell as keep the product. Like say they ordered a dark brown plushie, and I gave them dark brown, but they said it's not dark enough so it wasn't 'as specified'. They're actually completely happy with the product, but they want their money back aswell so they file a claim. But it seems like there are plenty of good ways to combat this. Especially the one about sending samples, and your advice about using a common knowlege refrence. =)

Thank you!

[wolf-goat.livejournal.com]

I've had Paypal for 10 years with no issues and no chargebacks. I have done 2 chargebacks myself in that time though, one an eBay seller who didn't send my item and stopped responding, the other with a perfume selling website that I did not receive my product from and who wouldn't give me any real customer service.

As people above have said, keep a tracking number for any items you mail out. Make sure you request payments for physical items under "Goods" and digital art under "Services". Keep records of your transactions up till the 45 days after the Paypal payment - no disputes can be raised after that date. And anyway, you are highly unlikely to have any problems!

Paypal

[kenoscope.livejournal.com]

I have been using Paypal since 1999, with no problems at all. Then, I usually purchase, not sell. Thus your light-years may vary.

[kaputotter.livejournal.com]

In my experience this is only really a problem if 1) you really did make a genuine mistake to warrant the Buyer Protection 2) you're dealing with a seriously vindictive and emotional customer.

PayPal is still evil and it still sucks but it's a lot better than it was back in say.... 2004.
Basically the government has stepped in saying PayPal acts too much like a regular bank in a lot of ways and that they can't get away with half the stuff they used to be able to. Their customer service has improved and they take fewer unreasonable actions towards people at this point.

Knock on wood.

Long story short? If you buy delivery confirmation at the post office for each item shipped, PayPal cannot ding you because all you do is provide the confirmation number for them and you're off the hook.

Alternatively, there is http://www.alertpay.com

Good luck!

[growly.livejournal.com]

" is this a common occurrence? "
Absolutely not. I've been doing business online with Paypal for close to six years, and this has never happened to me, ever.

[likeshine.livejournal.com]

i've had paypal for a decade now, and never a chargeback problem. i did have a problem with my paypal debit card info being stolen and used, but i did eventually get my money back (after jumping through some hoops)