Need some advice...

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

So I got a PM on the Terraria forums, about doing monster designs for someone's indie game company. Here is a screenshot of the entire conversation.

Screenie doesn't include him saying that they'll have a GDD written up in a few days.

And here is a quick link to the website they sent me.

It sounds intriguing, and I've always wanted to do designs for a video game. It just worries me that I'm not going to be seeing any money whatsoever up front. I don't mind getting paid a percentage of the profits (though, to be honest, 5% doesn't really sound like much :X), but I'd like at least something up front as a show of good faith. Especially considering all of the illustrations I'll be drawing. Front/sides/back views of (what sounds like) over 30 monster designs? That's a lot of work for what seems like a gamble.

That and he's only 17 (according to his forum profile).

So yeah, sounds interesting, but kinda iffy. It'd be a pretty cool opportunity, especially if it ended up actually turning into something amazing and selling well.

What do you guys think?

Comments

[findmealone.livejournal.com]

I know I sound like a terrible party pooper, but I'd never work for someone that young, specially on something as high-workload as a game. He'd have to be a really, REALLY driven guy just to get it going to the point where it makes a profit, so it doesn't look promising - especially if there is no money up front!!

[skittlewolf.livejournal.com]

If he is only 17 he cannot enter a binding contract. Thus, if he decides to not pay you, to my knowledge, it doesn't matter since the contact was bunk in the first place.

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

[findmealone.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the US, but I believe this is definitely the case in the UK.

[hellebore.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but I think this is doomed to failure :\

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Sadly, this situation is a dime a dozen. No upfront pay, no way, that's my mantra when dealing with young indie "game company" types (They almost always claim you'll get paid after, and yet want craploads of work done for nothing). And really...%5 of what? Of the profits they potentially will never make?

No. I would not agree to this. The probability this will ever get off off the ground is slim to none.

[latilombax.livejournal.com]

if he's 17, then why is he having an indie game company? I pretty much agree with others that 5% is not worth it, even for a game that's gonna be completed and makes any money (and especially when he's not paying you upfront for monster designs)

[notorious_hunty.livejournal.com]

Nope. What 17 year old would have an indie-game company unless he's filthy stinking rich and and extremely smart enough to come up with that of his own. 5% isn't worth it. I say ditch him.

[casteddreams.livejournal.com]

Gonna agree with everyone else here. I wouldn't trust it, the whole thing seems iffy and not even set in stone. If he wanted to hire you for this, he should have had more info for you. Not to mention his age and the legalities of that.

I would avoid this if I were in your shoes.

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the advice guys!
I was definitely iffy about it, but yeah, seeing what everyone else thought definitely confirms it for me. If I can't get him to give me upfront money for it, then there's no way I'm going to work for him. Or his "indie company."

And 5% is totally an insult. I highly doubt it'll make a million billion dollars.

[neive.livejournal.com]

Honestly, you seem to have evaluated the situation well enough in your own post lol. Its very risky, with chances of no reward or you'll get very little, and ultimately isn't worth the risk and the time. Like others have pointed out too, since he's underage he can't make those kinds of contracts with you legally? I suppose it does depend on where he lives, but it'd be best to err on the side of caution. You have multiple red flags over this, so its probably best to listen to them and turn it down. :c

[fetalstar.livejournal.com]

Haha yeah, definitely gonna be a no-go unless I can wrestle some upfront money out of him.

XD

[techno4tomcats.livejournal.com]

Just hashing what everyone else is saying:
17; in most countries he can get away with non binding contracts.
His website is sloppy and gallery is a bunch of stock renders.
5% for concept and designs for a game is laughable; and generally you get paid a flat amount and a cost is agreed upfront in most cases, not a percentage.

In short, nice idea, but definitely NOT a serious business proposal.

Re: Cash upfont

[jakejynx.livejournal.com]

I'm going to be blunt about this.

You are a child. You do not know enough about what you're getting into to make promises like that. You should not be seeking artists without a significant budget already in order. Where are you getting the money for this? You cannot enter into a binding contract with anyone, so it means nothing for you to say "you can trust us, honest!" No one with any real sense would work for you for nothing more than a promise that maybe if the game is ever complete and sells a bunch of copies, they'll get 5% of the profits. No. That's not how it works.

Furthermore, it is so incredibly unprofessional for you to post this here, trying to convince this artist to work for you and promising some "cash upfront in a week or two." If you want to offer that to the artist, contact them directly.

I apologize if you are insulted by this, but you need to understand how ridiculous your situation and your offer is. Frankly, it's kind of insulting to even try to get someone to work for you in this situation.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't go for this either. If the dude is serious, he will start a Kickstarter campaign or something and at least be able to pay you for a few pieces to be shown as examples of what's to come.

It COULD be a great opportunity, but the likelyhood of that is very very low.

[chronidu.livejournal.com]

I'd say his age alone makes this an instant deal breaker, byeond all the other red flags and his seemingly inability to conceptualize just how much work he's asking of you.

If you really want to do this, then I'd ask for an hourly wage as well as the percentage.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Darn it, was trying to screenshot the response above, but refreshed and now it's deleted arg. Definitely another red flag from this "pressuregames" fellow.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

DANGIT GURL I WAS JUST TYPIN THAT

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Serious red flag with the deleted posts too 8\

[magusmanx.livejournal.com]

No, I would stay faaar away from this. Honestly, indie games are a sketchy thing to do art work with. Always accept payment upfront, because who knows if it will even be finished.

mistakes

[pressuregames.livejournal.com]

I offered cash upfront, the last thing i need is a bad name for my company so i apologize for the previous accidental reply's

Re: mistakes

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Please understand we do not allow for deleted posts, do not do it again thanks!

You are offering money upfront "in a week or two" now, but you never did in the first place. Sorry, but your whole operation is fishy and I do not think you should be approaching any artists without a budget set aside right off the bat.

What do you plan on offering rate wise to this artist? I'm curious.

[succendo.livejournal.com]

Don't take it.

If you are looking to collaborate on games as an artist, you'd be much better off going to a dedicated indie site like TIGsource ( http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?board=6.0 ). You're much more likely to get reasonable work, and even if you don't find work, there's a lot of resources available for someone wanting to do game art.

[succendo.livejournal.com]

Full Disclosure: I'm a global moderator at TIGsource.

The point is, don't enter into an indie game with promises of future payment. Either accept payment up front, or do the work for free with no expectation of compensation. People like this PressureGames guy are a dime a dozen in the indie gaming world, and are generally a laughingstock.

[pressuregames.livejournal.com]

lol what do i care im not even working for pressure games i thought it would be funny if i posed as the founder

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

You're not very good at this "trolling" thing. I think if you were an impostor, then you wouldn't have deleted your prior (screencapped) comments, and are embarassed to the point of pretending to be a fake.

Sorry, but...it's pretty obvious it's you. =\

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

OK, I've had a look at the website and my lord, do not touch this with a ten foot bargepole.

It's vapourware. It will never exist.

There are a million and one red flags on the website and in the (deleted) comments.

-The website frontpage for the company is for a totally different game than the one you have been "hired" for (£5.99 pricepoint versus £20) even though they plan to have YOUR game into beta in about 3 months

-They plan to make a £20 game in 3 months. A £20 indy game takes experienced teams three YEARS or more

-The description for this game is spectacularly fuzzy and ill thought out. There is a fairly detailed (if poorly written) background/story section, but nothing about what sort of game it actually is. Is it RTS? Third person action? FPS? RPG? This is the hallmark of the "ideas guy" mindset: they think if they provide a concept all they need to do is find people willing to actually make the game. In reality, good programmers are gold dust, good artists very handy and ideas guys don't exist because the programmers and artists are working on their OWN (or occasionally one another's) ideas.

-From the jobs page, they are hiring EVERYONE. A small concern like this is usually one good programmer and one art guy, with maybe a music/sound guy on the side. If they don't already have at least some of those with a three man team, they're not going anywhere.

-They advertise jobs but they don't have any money

-The gallery comprises one polygon figure model and a bunch of lumps that may resemble a space shuttle at some point in the future.

-They are clearly Schoolchildren

If you take on this game for a percentage, you will make zero money. If you take it on for money upfront, you will be exploiting dumb schoolchildren who want to play at being game designers but will end up wasting money that would be better spent on university/food/their parents mortgage/throwing it into a big hole then setting it on fire (at least they'd stay warm)


Game maker, since you're reading this (and playing at puppet master), here's my advice: make a game. Make it on your own, the three of you, or just the one of you if you prefer. Screw the art, screw music, just concentrate on programming. Just make it a game where little coloured blocks of ascii symbols interact. Keep it extremely simple: even just an asteroids clone or breakout or pong or a text adventure if you need to. You'll learn SO much more tackling something manageable than trying to muddle through an advanced game that would be too ambitious for a lot of small studio teams.

[teacup-werewolf.livejournal.com]

MTE man...

[lilclaudy.livejournal.com]

The journal makes me wish I had a facepalm icon to use for this, because, DAYUM...

Instead, I am just going to say, don't touch it, not just because he is a kid, not just because of the site, but the way he acts here is a big red flag and would probably be a nightmare to work with even if it was legit.

[kikai-saigono.livejournal.com]

Classic 17 year old response: "It wasn't really the OP and I was just trolling you gaiz LOL!"

[night-sky99.livejournal.com]

More like classic 14 year old response: do something stupid, get called on it, and be like "lol just kiddin guyz!"

[jadinerhine.livejournal.com]

You know the sad thing about this? I was in a similar situation with someone but the only difference was the dude was 25 and it was for a webcomic. Suffice it to say, I hadn't done much luckily when I found out the truth :D

Glad to know you're not falling for this.

[ljmydayaway.livejournal.com]

I've actually been contacted twice about helping with game art. One was someone who ripped off the Final Fantasy storyline, and when I said, "I'm sorry, but I can't do that much art for free," I got a reply of, "You'll be sorry! This is going to be bigger than FF! It's not even THAT MUCH WORK! I just need a map and 15 character and monster designs and 20 CG arts!"

o _o

I had another person who wanted me to draw maps, but yea. Nothing doing, especially not for free.

So yea. I will never agree to doing art for just a percentage, ever, and will always recommend that someone at least get some pay upfront and a percentage later. :P

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

With the amount of "games development" going on out there, chances are this is just a short term burst of interest from a young kid, and it won't pan out or get you paid in anyway. I'd say steer clear.