Kai...

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

WHO: Kai or any of their many different character names.

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/kai/

WHAT: A pay to enter art contest, $9

WHEN: Jan. 27th 2011

PROOF: Journal with the entrant names after the closing, they deleted the original contest journal months ago. http://i42.tinypic.com/34zelxu.png
Paypal transaction. http://i42.tinypic.com/2gtdw1j.png
Today's conversation. http://i44.tinypic.com/jr8qyc.png
'Refund' email. http://i41.tinypic.com/es563m.png

EXPLAIN: I entered a contest Kai ran about this time last year, it was $9 a person and anyone that didn't win still got featured in a group picture with one of their larger (macro) characters. I paid the $9, and I even covered the fees (or lack of, at that point gifts didn't take them yet), everything was going fine and I'd seen the winners pictures had been posted so I waited to see the group picture. It was posted about a month ago and I only saw it today, and I wasn't in it. So I posted on there asking why I wasn't there and got this in response; http://i44.tinypic.com/jr8qyc.png

Now I know I come off a bit hostile in this myself, but anyone that has dealt with Kai at all knows what kind of person they are and what kind of reputation they have. My 'public attack' was a single comment in a small IRC channel, which she was then lectured heavily by the owner of the channel after banning me for it.

After a long conversation during which a mutual friend acted as a middleman while she raged over it somewhere, I was finally given a 'refund' which was sent in CAD instead of the original USD that I paid, and I was made to pay the fees, causing it to come up a total of 98 cents short, over 10% of the total.

Overall a very bad experience and one that I do not wish to repeat. In short, if you value decent customers, stay away from Kai.

Edit: found the IRC logs after some time of digging.

http://www.privatepaste.com/02da40f222

Edit 2/update: Got home from work to find http://i43.tinypic.com/egondl.png in my inbox, best part is she's blocked me so I can't even ask what she's talking about.

Comments

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I'm having trouble understanding the basis of the contest, if you don't mind explaining it to me?

So you pay to enter the contest and if you win, she was to commission someone else of art of your character... and if you didn't, you got put into a group picture as a sort of consolation prize. Am I understanding this correctly? You essentially pay for the chance for a cheap commission from a third party while she foots the rest of the bill?

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Indeed, though there's several smaller things that make me think she was pocketing some of it, but that's nothing for me to complain about.

[purpule.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see why she thinks you were disrespecting her.
Not that it's right to hold money because she believes she's been slighted, but until you saw that you weren't in the contest/commission, why did you apparently attack her?

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

IRC logs posted

[purpule.livejournal.com]

Good lord.
I didn't even know what sergals were 'til like, a month or two ago - and they cause this much drama?

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Sergal people are worse than dragon people, if you've ever had run ins with -those types-

[cyiakanami.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit confused as well. I've seen these types of contests on FA before, but the lack of the IRC chat on what exactly happened, leaves a bit of a gap of information along with the missing chat logs perhaps from your middleman conversation.

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

IRC logs posted and there was no middleman, the only thing not there now is stuff from lost logs (2010 IRC logs, had a reformat in April 2011) and the original contest journal that she wiped months ago.

[conigliomannaro.livejournal.com]

Uh, I'm sorry, I really think this is not enough background information. Sure, not following through to her end of the deal automatically puts her in the bad spot, but a less evasive report of what you said in that IRC channel may change the reader's perspective quite a bit. I think you need to come forward in a more honest way, and tell people what exactly you said, or a vague rephrasing of it, because personally, I don't feel like I can judge anything until I hear what happened for real. And your hesitating attitude on the matter, I'm sorry, doesn't help.

A quick question to the mods goes as an afterthought: did you change the layout of the comment pages after the last changes in Lj's layout? Not to complain or anything, but this one kind of hurts my eyes a little.

[mistresswolf.livejournal.com]

Re: comment layout - Yeeeesh, yeah I hate this one too. I like the normal, white/blue comment page layout more.


Anyway more to the point... I'd like to know what was said in IRC as well. Not that it excuses the person from holding the contest from calling the OP a "drama whore" and "failure of a person".

Personally, I would stay far away from any contest that wanted me to pay an entry fee.

[kerstin-orion.livejournal.com]

I liked the old layout, too. Unfortunately, LJ is mucking around with the styles and we had to change it. It's still a work in progress, so bear with us.

Is there anything in particular about this color scheme that's hard to read on your computers? I've tried it on my laptop and phone, but would welcome input from others.

(Oh, and to keep this from taking the post off-topic, please email me your suggestions at kerstinorion (at) gmail or send me a PM on LJ.)

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Posted IRC logs

[ocelotish]

Do you have any record of your other correspondence with the artist, particularly anything that might have gotten her upset? It just seems like we're missing a lot of the story here.

What I'd say is that you should confront her if possible about it being CAD instead of USD, but let the fees go. Did the artist ask you to send it as a gift? That's an issue as it's against Paypal's TOS and leaves you with no recourse should things go wrong. As for the fees, I can understand where you're not happy about them, but I wouldn't say that they're unfair. They would have applied the same both ways.

Edit: The more I think about the fees, the less I'm sure. On the one hand, they're just the cost of business, but on the other hand, the artist essentially charged you a dollar for nothing. I'm interested to see other people's perspectives on this.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

As far as the fees go... Yes, the OP is out a dollar, but it didn't go to the artist. It was taken by Paypal as a fee for using their services. It sucks in this case, but I'd hesitate to call it unfair. Just the cost of using Paypal.

Refunding the entry fee in CAD instead of USD is definitely the fault of the artist. I would be more than a little irritated by this, given that the conversion rates are sometimes pretty harsh.

I'm also curious as to what the rest of the story is here. This might not be the case, but... it certainly appears that bits of what was said are being selectively omitted. If they aren't incriminating, why leave them out?

[ocelotish]

Yeah, that's why at first I wasn't going to call it unfair. On the other hand, the OP isn't square when the artist just decided they couldn't work with the OP, which seems unfair too.

Does IRC log chats? I'm not familiar with it. Though as for that it would be easy enough to just restate more or less what was said.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

It's shaky ground, for sure. If the artist were more kind, they might have included a buck to cover fees... though it's not obligatory, and it looks like the whole transaction wasn't done on the best of terms.

I really couldn't say whether or not IRC logs chats... but a screencap or even just a general recap of the conversation would've cleared up some foggy areas. If only just to make the OP appear more honest. It's hard to sympathize with someone who only tells the parts of the story that weigh in their favour, as much as everyone may WANT to sympathize.

[ocelotish]

I'd agree with you on that one, but the gift option seems like dodging the fees on Kai's part, but then excepting the OP to pay them on this one. That doesn't strike me as a very good practice.

I'm kind of figuring there aren't screencaps, but yeah even a simple "This is what I said, this is what Kai said, to the best of my recollection," would go a long way.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

If part of the contest entry was sending the entry fee in the form of a gift payment, then I agree with you. Kai should have paid the fees on the refund. However, if sending the entry fee as a gift with all paypal fees included was done as a kind gesture from the OP, then Kai isn't obligated to return the favour, even if she maybe should have anyway.

[marlinkhylacat]

It depends upon the IRC chat client you use. But that said, I've yet to find an IRC client that DOESN'T have a logging option. Usually it's in the form of either text file and/or HTML. (I use the most popular IRC client, mIRC, which does text files, though I think newer releases may allow options for other formats.) Sometimes you have to manually enable logging depending upon the program, but it's usually as easy as clicking a checkbox.

[louveg.livejournal.com]

(Icon love, Terry Pratchett for the win <3)

[marlinkhylacat]

♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

To the OP: thanks for posting the IRC logs! That definitely puts a new spin on things.

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Posted the old IRC logs, the only thing that was said in the conversation today was said via a mutual friend so I'm not sure how valid it is.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

Daaaaang. Talk about mixing personal and business. Beware well warranted. Good on you for posting the logs.

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Posted IRC logs

[ocelotish]

Thanks for posting the logs. I know I'm not the only person who appreciates it.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

I don't see why OP should be out fees both too and from the artist when from all I can see, artist is the one who had a snit and canceled the commission over something that should have been fairly minor, didn't bother to tell the OP until they asked, and was extremely insulting about it too.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

That's my general feeling about it, too. Unfortunately in a world where doing the right thing and fulfilling obligations aren't one and the same... The artist never asked for fees to be paid, and isn't obligated to include them in the refund. It sucks, and it's a pretty crappy thing to do on the part of the artist, but the OP can't really demand those fees back.

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

Okay... Still an artist to avoid working with.

[excessdenied0.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

I know Kai pretty well I'd like to think, and while I won't go to them and get involved with this I can atleast tell you that yeah, they can get like this sometimes. Your best bet is to wait till they calm down, and if possible approach them about this again? I am also echoing everyone else, more details about this would be nice since it is kind of fuzzy still.

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Posted the IRC logs, something 4 months old that she was still that raged about.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I don't think I could imagine getting that mad about something like 'sergal canon'. How silly.

[white-wer.livejournal.com]

Any sort of things like these I avoid, I've entered a few things like that in the furry fandom, and ended up getting shafted on the winnings. So In general these tend to be more headaches then they are worth, especially if they involve multiple artists.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

x_X @ the IRC log. Looks kinda like Kai had a issue with your before this happened?

There really shouldn't have been any arguement from the artist about a refund; they didn't give you a product for which you had paid for. The choosing of the wrong currency could have been an error, but it also could have been on purpose....

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

Kai is from Canada, so them sending it as CAD makes sense lol.
But still you can easily convert it to USD before it's sent..but judging from all this they were probably way too angry to even think about that. :S

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I don't think sending it CAD makes sense. I'm Canadian, but I'm well aware that the bulk of artists work in USD and it's nothing to click the dropdown and select USD as the currency.

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

yeah I figured when they sent that refund to the OP they were probably just too angry and stuff to care about correcting the currency

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

Agreed it could be easy, but yeah don't think they were thinking straight. But being able to pay the right amount Canadian could be tricky too because the exchange market fluctuates a lot through out the day. Though isn't the Candian dollar close to the US?

[cappucola.livejournal.com]

currently ts is veeery close. But yeah it changes way too often either way lol. Basically you're just better off checking through paypal before paying someone because it can auto convert in a second.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm still a bit confused. Kai on FA is Katsuke in the IRC chat? And Dasaki is Dasaki in both? Because if that's the case, then the course of events I'm seeing is this:

1. K hosts a pay-for-entry contest; runners-up to be in a group picture.
2. D pays USD 9.00 to be in contest (screencap of Paypal transaction)
3. D is a runner-up (screencap of journal)

Time passes...

4. Confrontation between K and D happens in IRC chatroom:
a. D disagrees about what is canon
b. K rudely tells D off
c. D replies - politely - that they've talked with others about what is and is not canon, naming a couple.
d. K tells D they have no respect for D and this channel is not for them
e. D replies they have more respect for others named than for K
f. K kicks D from channel
g. R restores D and further confrontation follows (IRC chatlog)

More time passes...

5. K posts pic, D is not in it despite what the journal said.
6. D asks why?
7. K says it's because D "doesn't respect me at all"; then later attributes "I have no respect for you whatsoever" to D (FA comments)

Huh? Where did that come from? From my read to this point, K is the one who has no respect for D? At any rate, K then refunds D CAD 9.00, which is about a dollar short.

Really, I don't see where Kai/Katsuke has a leg to stand on. Unless I'm mis-reading the sequence of events and players in it completely...

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much it, yea.

[genkigami.livejournal.com]

Wow. What a completely asinine thing to throw a shitfit about. Even more petty she decided to pull a" you're not invited to my birthday party SO THERE" move.

[tearor bloodwing (from livejournal.com)]

Sadly this article was posted as an attempt to lash back at Kai after she had pulled Dasaki out of the comission. And although Kai is by no means innocent in this case the IRC logs have been editted to leave out the part where Dasaki purposely aggrovated Kai by telling her to her face that he does not respect her. As well it was only found out when Kai paid him back that Dasaki did not pay the paypal fee himself after all and instead it was taken from the sum she recieved as the payment was not sent as a gift but instead as a Payment Owed.

Although Kai may not be the easiest to get along with and is well known to fly off the handle when aggitated by others the only issue here is between Dasaki and Kai as the artist was properly paid for their services.

Kai may not be the friendliest of people but Dasaki has purposely sought revenge in this posting when he was given what was owed to him minus the fees that paypal took for itself and so this should be a non issue. Instead Dasaki seems to be seeking the last laugh with another passive agressive stab at someone who is very obviously easy to aggitate.

[dasaki.livejournal.com]

Please, tell me where to find these mystical IRC logs that you and Kai seem to be referring to, the only edit I did was to change my username in the text from Hatsaki (tf2 shit at the time) to Dasaki. And I sent the payment exactly as I was told to in the journal, and even if it WAS payment owed, *I* would have payed the fees, which I know from sending it between my own paypals for a non related reason, that there AREN'T any.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

It really doesn't matter what the OP said to Kai. She doesn't get to keep someone's money for nothing. Nothing said would have changed that.

Not that it would be 'okay' if the OP were being dishonest, of course.

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Actually that part IS in the logs. Line 18. If you have proof that there was any editing then provide it, though bear in mind any amount of goading still does not excuse Kai's behaviour.

As for the subject of paypal fees, it is against their TOS to send or receive funds as a gift when it is actually part of a transaction. As such, if Kai has done this then her account could be shut down. Dasaki was entirely in the right to not send it as a gift.

I get that you want to defend your friend but you're not helping Kai's case by coming in here throwing accusations around without proof and spouting uninformed nonsense while attacking the OP.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

She and her friend here keep pushing that you were dishonest with the logs and that you said a lot more than that. The thing is, it doesn't matter. You could have called her any number of actual insults and it wouldn't have changed the fact that she doesn't get to keep your money for nothing.

The end. Fin. Period. The mere fact that she thinks she DID have that right and that you're 'lucky' that you were refunded is why this is such a valid beware and she is a poor businessperson.