Beware: Sin.

[jeiwolf.livejournal.com]

WHO: Sin.

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/sin.

WHAT: Originally, a commission of 10 chibi's. Eventually changed to 2 sketch pages for artist convenience. Changed again to a single piece for artists convenience.

WHEN: November 15th, 2010 - January 12, 2012

PROOF: The original agreement on November 15th, 2010 where Sin. accepted $40 for 10 fully colored pictures.
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence2.png

EXPLAIN: Originally, Sin. was hard up for money and needed quick buck to help her out with some things. I had some expendable cash and had recently discovered her, so I thought I could help out and get some art along the way. By November 20th she had accepted my ideas and was to begin work on the pieces ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence3.png ).

From that date, all of the interaction between Sin. and myself took place over messengers where it was easier to quickly communicate ideas. She finished pieces from others who commissioned her from the same journal as I did and even started taking more commissions both from journals and livestreams. She claimed that she would work on mine, but I never was shown any progress nor would she work on them in public view for me to see. I was careful not to be belligerent, however, and did not push her too harshly to finish them. Now and then I would reminder her that she still owed me things only to be met with "Oh I know! I haven't forgotten about you!", but it yielded no actual results.

For the next few months this went on, asking for updates and reminding that she still owed me work while she continued to take and finish others commissions right before my eyes, but she said that so many pictures were too difficult. So I agreed for the sake of getting SOMETHING for my money to condense it all down into two sketch pages instead of 10 fully colored pieces. This was completely for Sin.'s convenience. More months pass and despite claims of having a full page completed, no progress was shown physically. Eventually after a lapse of contact I sent a note to ask how the sketches were going at which point she admitted to being behind and opted instead to give me 5 pieces of art fully colored ( HALF of the original amount ) for my troubles. ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence4.png And http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence5.png ).

I stated that I would tell her precisely what I wanted at a later date, since I wasn't exactly sure at this point what to commission. Things stayed this way for a couple of weeks until my girlfriend and I chose what we wanted. The idea of a five person commission, despite her request to only have 3 per pictures, was given to her with the perk of it being the only picture she would have to complete to fulfill her duty to me. At first she accepted, but once confronted with the idea of drawing it decided it would be too difficult and backed down. Several more days pass and I allow my girlfriend some of the slots that I didn't know how to use to get a reference sheet. She knew the details better than I would, so I had her contact Sin. directly. Sin. denied my girlfriend without attempting to contact me based on the fact that they were my slots.

This all leads to January 12, 2012 when she sent me this note with no provocation from myself. Needless to say, I was surprised to see it pop up in my inbox. ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence6.png ). Of course, having been as patient as I was ( even recognized by herself at one point ) this felt like a kick in the gut. Finally we work out the deal to do the original idea that I had come up with for the 5 person commission and that would fulfill her obligation to me.

She insisted on doing this commission immediately to get it out of the way. I had things to take care of and it was getting very late, so my girlfriend handled the details for me. Immediately she continued her rude attitude and made things very difficult to the very end.

It is obvious from looking at the piece that her normal care was not put into it and it was finished in under an hour after over a year of waiting. ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/beecarcommission.png ). No background, sloppy lines, hardly adding ANY detail.

Finally, as soon as she finished the commission, she posted a journal about her experience with "us" and showing her true emotion and attitude. ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence8.png ).

I do a lot of commissioning and this is the worst experience I have ever had. Stay FAR away from this artist.

Comments

(frozen)

[ocelotish]

I do feel like we're missing part of the story here. However, that being said, it doesn't mean the artist is right. I've looked at some of her other chibis, and while I'd say that you got more background than the others I've seen, there does seem to be a drop in quality.

However, I also feel like you have some responsibility here too. I wish I could see things a little more clearly, but it looks like there was an agreement for ten single figure chibis, that the artist then wanted to combine into five two-character chibis or so. I'm not seeing anything dealing with the sketch pages, or the exact details of how the five pieces that were agreed upon. However, if you have decided on the single piece with the five characters that completes the whole agreement, that is your decision.

I also feel like it wasn't unreasonable to refuse the girlfriends asking for one of your slots. First of all, it's always messy to work with a third party who hasn't paid for the slot. Secondly, trying to use the slot within the context of an auction is entirely inappropriate. That being said, you didn't deserve to be yelled at for your girlfriend's actions. The journal is also entirely inappropriate and unprofessional.

TL;DR - The artist was definitely unprofessional, however I feel like there's a lot of the story we're missing too.

(frozen)

[poizenkat.livejournal.com]

I agree with just about everything you've said XD

(frozen)

[jeiwolf.livejournal.com]

The only parts of the story missing are the parts that are on messenger. I have no proof for them since I do not keep messenger logs, and did not think I would ever have to post anything like this. I have detailed them in text, but cannot provide you with proof.

As you can see in my submitted picture ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence2.png ) 10 fully colored pictures were agreed upon. She told me later on a messenger that this was too much once she had begun and could not finish it. I agreed that it was a lot and we shortened it to 2 non-colored sketch pages to be mailed to me. She said that she had completed one, but would not show it to me.

One year later I prodded her to ask how things were going, since she still owed me the pieces and had given me absolutely no updates. She responded ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence4.png ) and ( http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence5.png ) to agree upon 5 pieces fully colored.

I have no problems with this. I agreed upon this amount. My girlfriend inquired as to whether or not she could use some slots for herself. I agreed that it would be okay if she did so. I was unaware that she was using it for an auction nor was it cleared by me to do so. Neither my girlfriend or the artist contacted me over this interaction between them. I received an angry note out of the blue complaining at me for things that I didn't even know had taken place.

The assumption here seems to be that I sent my girlfriend to Sin. with the intention of using the slots for the ref sheet. I did not do any such thing. I agree that this should not have been done. I also think that with as patient as I had been with absolutely no updates and agreeing upon things to make things easier for the artist it is unreasonable to be yelled at and DEMANDED to come up with something this instant that she can draw so she would no longer owe me anything.

Sin. also offered me the option of a refund. I denied because months previous to that I had asked for a refund and she denied me saying that she did not have the money.

(frozen)

[ocelotish]

I looked at every single screencap you provided. I understand that you don't have the messenger logs, but that doesn't mean that we're not missing bits and pieces of the story.

Your caps only say full colored pictures, they do not say how many characters are included except this one, where it specifies up to three. This makes me wonder if she was offering to complete 10 characters, but in fewer pieces. This makes sense to me, and might be something you would agree to.

My girlfriend inquired as to whether or not she could use some slots for herself. I agreed that it would be okay if she did so.

I understand that you agreed to this, but I don't see any indication you told the artist. That is a crucial. I agree that the angry note to you was out of line; however, I can understand the artist being upset with your girlfriend.

The assumption here seems to be that I sent my girlfriend to Sin. with the intention of using the slots for the ref sheet. I did not do any such thing. I agree that this should not have been done.

I don't see one single person here assuming you sent your girlfriend to the the artist. I don't know where you getting this.

I also think that with as patient as I had been with absolutely no updates and agreeing upon things to make things easier for the artist it is unreasonable to be yelled at and DEMANDED to come up with something this instant that she can draw so she would no longer owe me anything.

I really can't say how reasonable this is or not, because we don't have any record of the rest of the transaction. Just as an example - if the artist didn't have current prompts that would put a different spin on the delay.

My point is that you ultimately said that you wanted the 5 chibi piece and that would fulfill all of the artist's obligation to you. You can't complain that it's half of what you were owed when that is the piece you chose for the artist to do.

(frozen)

[jeiwolf.livejournal.com]

Why would you assume that she meant 10 characters in fewer pictures? It says that nowhere. In fact it plainly SAYS 10 fully colored /pictures/. To say that she meant 10 characters in fewer pieces is baseless and is contradicted directly by the artist herself.

Much more to the point, we discussed it on many occasions. Hence we shortened it to two sketch pages. 10 pictures was too many. We agreed. There was no "condensing" as you have suggested. She came to me, told me that 10 was too many, and asked if I would accept two sketch pages. I agreed to this.

I would gladly show you interaction where I discussed this with Sin, but I do not have it as almost ALL of our interaction was on messengers. She became a friend of my girlfriend. They talked often. The attended each others streams. They called each other on the phone and on Skype. They KNEW each other. Originally when Bee had floated the idea that she would like to use some of my slots to Sin., she was receptive and acknowledged that she would prefer drawing Bee than Carrot as she didn't like orange characters. However, as we found out from later interactions, she didn't want to take them as payment for her auction which is completely understandable.

I'm not complaining that it is half of what I am owed. We negotiated it down. However, I was backed into accepting or receiving nothing. She couldn't pay me back the money because she didn't have it. She said that months ago and when she offered me another refund later, she said she would have to pay it back "when she could". I wasn't okay with this. She told me to make a decision now because she wasn't going to have it before. So I made my decision that the one piece would suffice. She drew it in under an hour with poor quality.

Waiting a year for a piece of obviously lower quality than her normal work while being a patient and lenient commissioner to allow her to work it down to something much less taxing on her schedule seems unreasonable to me.

It is 100% on the artist if they tell me to choose right now what I want after they had failed for over a year to even update me with progress. I reminded her every couple of months. She KNEW this was owed. She put it off and did not care until she was made angry, then she wanted it done instantly.

(frozen)

[ocelotish]

I want to keep this brief, but you really hadn't given us a lot of details that are important to this story. I'm looking at what you presented, and what isn't here. I do have to make guesses about what isn't there, but I'm looking at what might make sense for both parties. Please don't get hostile with me.

I'm not complaining that it is half of what I am owed. We negotiated it down. However, I was backed into accepting or receiving nothing. She couldn't pay me back the money because she didn't have it. She said that months ago and when she offered me another refund later, she said she would have to pay it back "when she could". I wasn't okay with this. She told me to make a decision now because she wasn't going to have it before. So I made my decision that the one piece would suffice. She drew it in under an hour with poor quality.

You need to figure out whether you actually made the choice to agree to this or not. I understand that it would have been a while for a refund (which stinks), but you were already waiting for a long time for the pictures. I guess I don't see how one option was really any better than the other at that point. I also don't see any threat of you getting nothing at all.

This is what I meant by complaining that you got half of the initial amount: "Eventually after a lapse of contact I sent a note to ask how the sketches were going at which point she admitted to being behind and opted instead to give me 5 pieces of art fully colored ( HALF of the original amount ) for my troubles."

It is 100% on the artist if they tell me to choose right now what I want after they had failed for over a year to even update me with progress.

I don't know how much is on the artist as you have no proof. I don't know how I can make this much clearer. This message was precipitated by beepuppy asking the artist to use a slot for the auction, but to me that says that some of the slots were open. If they weren't open, telling you to decide right then wouldn't be an issue. After all you'd have everything laid out; you could just list the five slots out for the artist no problem. If the artist doesn't have prompts, they can't work on it.

I'm not saying that the artist is right in this situation, in fact, I've said again and again where the artist is 100% in the wrong. However, I'm not sure that you were 100% innocent in the whole affair either. You've provided very disjointed evidence, and it's very hard to make determinations in that case.

(frozen)

[jeiwolf.livejournal.com]

Inserting false ideas as a way of filling in holes that you cannot otherwise understand also does not in any way help. I'm not sure what details I haven't given to you here? I have explained everything and expanded when pressed for further information in these comments.

I have admitted that I agreed on fewer amounts. I have admitted that the slots should not have even been suggested for the auction. I'm not claiming that I am 100% a victim, but I do believe that I got the sour end of the deal here, not the artist.

If you think that this was a successful interaction between commissioner and artist, that is certainly your right. However, I would respectfully disagree and say that the artist should have completed one of the agreed upon items without having to change every couple of months.

I understand that sometimes artists have problems and things can't be completed, but she continued to take commissions, freebies, and stream sketches. There are a couple of people in this very post admitting to similar situations where she has poor interactions with customers and does not produce art despite payment being given.

Perhaps the artist COULD be at fault and it isn't the fault of a AB poster that you deem to be untruthful. The fact that I lack the messenger logs does not invalidate the negative experience that was created here.

TO THE POINT: The original date of commission was November 15, 2010. I got NOTHING until January 12, 2012. This in itself is unacceptable. She had "prompts" this entire time and continued to change the terms. Whether or not I accepted IS irrelevant, because she could have completed any of these terms with the prompts given to her.

Her behavior at the end is also unacceptable under any circumstances as you have admitted. Am I at fault for her long delay while still taking commissions? Am I at fault for her taking too large of a load? Am I at fault for her spending the money and not being able to give me a refund initially? Am I at fault for her not completing the sketch pages and having to change terms again?

(frozen)

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

As one of the other mods has done in a thread above, I'm going to freeze this one because you're both still going in circles and it's getting a little more heated than necessary. If you wish to continue the discussion, feel free to do so over PMs.

edit: I appear to have gotten confused here so disregard the "you're both still" part, but the freezing still stands.

(frozen)

[jeiwolf.livejournal.com]

ALSO, to clear this up. I sent ideas for the 10 pictures her way with two characters in each picture. She agreed to them and said she loved the ideas. If she actually meant for 10 characters, why would she accept it in the first place? As seen in: http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc496/Carrotwolf/Sinevidence3.png